F.F. Bruce (NICNT): The prayer is couched in dignified language, with liturgical echoes.⁸⁰ The question whether the “Lord” to whom it is addressed is God the Father or the Lord Jesus is probably settled by the fact that the same verb is used in verse 24 (“thou hast chosen”) as in verse 2 (“the apostles whom he [Jesus] had chosen”).⁸¹ The same Lord who had chosen the apostles at the beginning of his ministry would choose this replacement for Judas.
D. Bock (BECNT): The choice is left to prayer and God. The prayer is simply for the choice to be made by the Lord, the one who knows the “hearts of all men” (καρδιογνῶστα πάντων, kardiognōsta pantōn). God as “the knower of hearts” appears only here and in Acts 15:8 and not at all in the LXX, but it is conceptually in 1 Sam. 16:7.[15] God is to reveal his choice (ἐξελέξω, exelexō). This verb for “select” appears twenty-two times in the NT with eleven occurrences in Luke-Acts: Luke 6:13; 9:35; 10:42; 14:7; Acts 1:2, 24; 6:5; 13:17; 15:7, 22, 25. Here is a good case where the aorist participle and the aorist verb are contemporaneous, as the praying and speaking occur together (BDF §339.1). The casting of lots will make the Lord’s choice clear. Who is the Lord referred to here? Is the Father meant or the Lord Jesus? Barrett (1994: 103) and Marshall (1980: 66) believe the latter, pointing to verse 2, where Jesus is the selector of the apostles, as well as to Luke 6:13; John 6:70; 13:18; 15:16, 19. Jesus is also addressed as Lord in Acts 1:21. The answer is less than clear. Usually, however, the Father performs the action, and Jesus mediates in Acts. In addition, the Father knows hearts in Acts 15, so the Father is probably the actor here (Conzelmann 1987: 12; parabolically, Luke 16:15; Rom. 8:27; 1 Thess. 2:4; Weiser 1981:71).
A.T. Robertson (Word Picture NT):
Show us the one whom thou hast chosen (αναδειξον ον εξελεξω). First aorist active imperative of αναδεικνυμ, to show up, make plain. First aorist middle indicative second person singular of εκλεγω, to pick out, choose, select. In this prayer they assume that God has made a choice. They only wish to know his will. They call God the
heart-searcher or heart-knower (καρδιογνωστα, vocative singular), a late word, here and Ac 15:8 only in the N.T. Modern physicians have delicate apparatus for studying the human heart.
Eckhard J. Schnabel (ZECNT Commentary on Acts): 1:24 They prayed, “Lord, you know the hearts of all people; show us which one of these two men you have chosen” (καὶ προσευξάμενοι εἶπαν· σὺ κύριε καρδιογνῶστα πάντων ἀνάδειξον ὃν ἐξελέξω ἐκ τούτων τῶν δύο ἕνα). The assembled believers turn to God when the time has come to decide between the two candidates for the position of the twelfth apostle. Their ongoing prayers (cf. 1:14) turn to a specific decision that must be made—a decision that in this case they cannot make on their own initiative, relying on their own wisdom.
The address “Lord” (κύριε) may refer to Jesus, described in v. 2 as the one who had chosen the apostles and called “Lord Jesus” in v. 21. More likely the believers address their prayer to God, as he is called “God, who knows the human heart” (ὁ καρδιογνώστης) in 15:8, a title that reflects the Old Testament teaching about God’s knowledge of the thoughts and motivations of the individual and about his foreknowledge. The choice of who belongs to the Twelve can be made only by God, not by the assembled believers, as the original group of the twelve disciples had been made up not of volunteers but by men selected by Jesus. Thus the believers pray that God will reveal his choice.
Richard I. Pervo (Hermeneia Commentary on Acts): The prayer has formal elements that would
become standard in the liturgical “collect”: address, ascription, and petition.54 The petition is grounded
in the attribute “knowledge of human hearts.”55 Does “Lord” here refer to God, as in 15:8, or to Jesus, as in v. 2? The former appears more probable.56
[Footnote] 56 So, e.g., Conzelmann, 25; and Jervell, 128; although Barrett (1:102) argues for Jesus on
the grounds that the selection of apostles is his prerogative.
30 comments:
Edgar,
I found this:
Craig Keener: Do the disciples here invoke Jesus as "Lord" in prayer (cf. 1 Cor 16:22; 2 Cor 12:8-9), or do they address God the Father? Luke frequently uses Lord for Jesus (e.g., Acts 2:21, 36; 4:33; 9:10-11, 15, 17, 27-28; 11:16, 17, 20; 15:11; 16:31; 19:5, 13, 17; 20:21, 24, 35; 21:13; 22:10; 26:15; 28:31), including in the immediate context (1:21), sometimes even in in prayer (7:59-60). Further, Jesus "chose" the other eleven (Acts 1:2; 6:13), and so it reasonable to suppose that he does the choosing here (1:24). Yet Luke regards the title as applicable to both (see Luke 20:42; Acts 2:34) and hence also applies the title to Jesus's Father (e.g., Luke 1:16, 32; 2:22-24, 29; 4:8; Acts 4:26), including in prayer (Luke 10:21; Acts 4:24). Perhaps the analogous prayer in Acts 4:24-30 shifts the weight in favor of addressing the Father, since that prayer addresses the Father in the second person and speaks of the Son in the third. (Acts: An Exegetical Commentary: Introduction and 1:1-2:47, page 773)
Acts 1:24-25
(24) And they prayed and said, “You, Lord, who know the hearts of all men, show which one of these two You have chosen
(25) to occupy this ministry and apostleship from which Judas turned aside to go to his own place.” (NASB, 1995)
When the appellation "Lord" appears without reading "Lord Jesus" in Acts 1:24 it is important to keep in mind that when key words from this prayer are found in another verse in association with the "Lord" the Lord always refers to the Lord Jesus.
1. The "Lord" occurs along with the same Greek word for "show" in Luke 10:1 - in reference to the Lord Jesus.
2. The "Lord" occurs along with the same Greek word for "ministry" in 1 Corinthians 12:5 - in reference to the Lord Jesus.
3. The "Lord" occurs along with the same Greek word from "ministry" in Colossians 4:17 - in reference to the Lord Jesus.
4. The "Lord" occurs along the same Greek word for "apostleship" in 1 Corinthians 9:2 - in reference to the Lord Jesus.
Fair enough, FR. Thanks.
Edgar,
I have updated what I had written above. I have never seen this evidence addressed and/or refuted:
When the appellation "Lord" appears without reading "Lord Jesus" in Acts 1:24 it is important to keep in mind that whenever a word from this prayer is found in another context of Scripture the Lord always refers to the Lord Jesus.
1. The "Lord" occurs along with the same Greek word for "show" (anadeiknymi) in Luke 10:1 - in reference to the Lord Jesus.
2. The "Lord" occurs along with the same Greek word for "chosen" (eklegomai) in John 6:70 (cf. John 6:68) - in reference to the Lord Jesus.
3. The "Lord" occurs along with the same Greek word for "chosen" (eklegomai) in John 13:13 and John 13:14 (cf. John 13:18) - in reference to the Lord Jesus.
4. The "Lord" occurs along with the same Greek word for "ministry" (diakonia) in 1 Corinthians 12:5 - in reference to the Lord Jesus.
5. The "Lord" occurs along with the same Greek word for "ministry" (diakonia) in Ephesians 4:12 (cf. Ephesians 4:5) - in reference to the Lord Jesus.
6. The "Lord" occurs along with the same Greek word from "ministry" (diakonia) in Colossians 4:17 - in reference to the Lord Jesus.
7. The "Lord" occurs along the same Greek word for "apostleship" (apostolē) in Romans 1:5 (cf. Romans 1:4) - in reference to the Lord Jesus.
8. The "Lord" occurs along the same Greek word for "apostleship" (apostolē) in 1 Corinthians 9:2 - in reference to the Lord Jesus.
Please cite an example of anyone anywhere who has discussed or written concerning all the evidence above.
In addition, "Lord" is used in reference to Jesus just before the prayer took place (Acts 1:21; cf. 1:6). Along with numbers 4 through 6 above Luke records Paul affirming that he received his "ministry" from the Lord in reference to the Lord Jesus within this very same book (Acts 20:24; cf. 1 Timothy 1:12). Luke also tells us that Jesus "chose" the apostles in Luke 6:13 and in Acts 1:2 (cf. Acts 1:24).
The Lord who is the heart-knower of all is Jesus. That God is referred to as the heart-knower does not rule out what is taught in Acts 1:24 in reference to Jesus. Luke would teach the Lord Jesus possesses this same knowledge (Luke 6:7-9) as would John (John 2:24-25; Revelation 2:23) and Peter (1 Peter 2:25) as well as Paul (1 Corinthians 4:5).
a. Simon Kistemaker: Even if Luke elsewhere writes, "God, who knows the heart" (15:8), the context itself shows that Peter refers to the Lord Jesus (v. 21). In addition, the verb have chosen occurs in verse 2, where Jesus is the subject (Exposition of the Acts of the Apostles, page 67).
b. Alan Thompson: One other distant use of the term is not enough evidence to outweigh the nearer context of Acts 1:2 (One Lord, One People: The Unity of the Church in Acts in Its Literary Setting, page 67, footnote #67).
Furthermore, the God of peace as described in 1 Thessalonians 5:23 does not negate the Lord Jesus is the Lord of peace in 2 Thessalonians 3:16. This, along with Acts 1:24 and Acts 15:8 (as well as other passages), teaches the "Lord" is used in reference to Jesus in the same sense to that of God.
Finally, Peter, who probably led the prayer, elsewhere used "Lord" in reference to Jesus that links with what he affirmed about Him in Acts 1:24.
After saying the Lord knew all things, Peter would later teach the Lord knew all hearts.
John 21:17 kurie panta su oidas Lord, Thou knowest all things
Acts 1:24 su kurie kardiognōsta pantōn Thou, Lord, which knowest the hearts of all
After affirming the Lord knew all hearts, Peter would later teach He (Jesus) is Lord of all.
Acts 1:24 kurie kardiognōsta pantōn Lord, which knowest the hearts of all
Acts 10:36 pantōn kurios Lord of all
See - "THE LORD OF THE ENTIRE WORLD: LORD JESUS, A CHALLENGE TO LORD CAESAR?"
https://greeklexicon.org/lexicon/strongs/2819/
For the "Lord" in Acts 1:24 see LXX of 1 Sam 24:9 - And David rose up and went after him out of the cave: and David cried after Saul, saying, >>My lord<<, O king! and Saul looked behind him, and David bowed with his face to the ground, and did obeisance to him.
FR, if others want to hash out this issue with you and within reason, I will allow the discussion. I don't believe that any Witnesses are afraid of such discussions or worried about "losing" ground with Trinitarians. So please don't interpret my actions as a failure to address your claims.
I looked at John Chrysostom's homily on Acts 1:12ff and he seems to apply Acts 1:24 to God, not to the Lord Jesus. It would be interesting to see what other church fathers had to say about the verse. Either way, I see Trinitarian scholars divided about the "Lord" of Acts 1:24, and one thing that doesn't make sense to me is why the apostles would have been praying to the recently ascended Jesus. Let's assume that it eventually became common to offer prayer to Jesus. Yet why would they have offered prayer at this point? It makes no sense to me. Furthermore, the casting of lots indicates that the apostles offered prayer to God the Father (YHWH/Jehovah). That's my 2 cents.
Edgar,
It is a failure on your part. You are depending on them to do what the Bible commands a believer to do (1 Peter 3:15). I hope someone can go through and attempt to address/refute the evidence I presented. I have never had anyone do so.
Why would they not off prayer at this point? Or at any point? Jesus can be prayed to whenever a believer wants to. He always knows our hearts.
You assert, "the casting of lots indicates that the apostles offered prayer to God the Father (YHWH/Jehovah)." This is an assertion which was supported with zero proof.
The Greek word for "lots" in Acts 1:26 is klēros. It is also used in Acts 1:17 in association with the "ministry" Judas once held. This "ministry" was now to be filled by asking the Lord Jesus in prayer to "show" the person He has "chosen" - and lots were given for Him to make that choice.
FR, I don't feel bad about my decision. We've talked about the issue and come to a stalemate. You're not going to change (more than likely) and you're not going to convince me. So, why should we continue? My time could be spent better talking with people who want to reason on issues, not prove themselves right. Remember when Jesus told his disciples to wipe the dust off their feet? Plus I'm blogging which takes a lot of time, so no, I don't feel bad.
It's hard for me to believe that you've never encountered any refutations of your claims. I've been discussing the Trinity with people for almost 40 years: I've read books that offer refutations of Trinitarian claims and the verses that you guys use. Just because you don't accept a refutation does not mean that you haven't encountered one.
I approach the Bible from a literary and historical perspective. From that perspective, it's difficult to understand why monotheistic Jews in the first century CE would be praying to a recently deceased human , even if he was the Messiah/Christ. Read the Shema and study first century Judaism. Developments had to occur in 1st century Christianity. I find it hard to believe that Jews could change their devotional orientation overnight.
You say that Jesus knows hearts, and I agree. But do you know why he knows our hearts?
I already cited Proverbs 16:33 about lots and YHWH/Jehovah: a faithful Jew/Israelite would cast lots in order to seek guidance from YHWH. That is not a bare assertion, but it's what the Tanakh teaches. The ministry that Judas received came from God although Jesus chose the apostles. Christ prayed to his father all night before making that choice; the ultimate decision issued from God the Father.
Let me also get this straight. So you believe that sometimes prayer is made to one person of the Trinity, but not to the others? At times, prayers is offered to Jesus? At other times, to God the Father or the Holy Spirit?
Edgar,
Your time is better spent with people who don't know better and/or who for whatever reason are unable to challenge you, because I have supplied plenty of reasonable evidence in my previous posts that has gone unrefuted. You wouldn't touch it with a ten foot pole.
Yes, I know why Jesus fully knows the hearts of all. It's because He is God, for this knowledge belongs to Him alone (1 Kings 8:39). It is also one of the main reasons why the Lord Jesus is the proper recipient of prayer. This too proves He is God.
I agree the ultimate decision is from God the Father, but it also is from the Son. That is why He is being prayed to in Acts 1:24-25. You asserted, "It's hard for me to believe that you've never encountered any refutations of your claims." I have encountered reasons for why Jesus is not being addressed in Acts 1:24-25. Many of them incorrectly think that because the heart-knower applies to God in Acts 15:8 that this rules out that it applies to Jesus in Acts 1:24. Or they insist that prayer is never to be given to Jesus and so therefore the prayer in Acts 1:24-25 can't be to Jesus.
If you know of any person, article, and/or website that has dealt with all that I have supplied please let me know.
I agree with the following:
Steven Tsoukalas: Though I fully adhere to the distinction of the three persons of the Trinity (see Appendix 2), I also adhere to their unity. Thus, when the Son is prayed to, the Spirit and the Father hear the prayer; and when the Son answers He does so in union with the Father and the Spirit...when I state that the Son alone is prayed to, I mean to draw attention to Paul's emphasis of the Son, not his exclusion of the Father (Knowing Christ in the Challenge of Heresy, page 112, footnote 100).
FR, All that you're positing is not found in Scripture: the Bible teaches nothing about a Trinity or any unity between this Trinity. It's a figment of the human imagination (i.e., a myth).
Where does the Bible say that when pray is said to the Son, the other Persons hear the prayer? Or that the three Persons answer prayers in unison? You guys make it up as you go along.
The ultimate decision is from the Father and the Son? It can't be from both if it's an ultimate decision.
You act like I did not interact with anything you said. If that's your claim, then with all respect, that claim is blatantly false, sir. I made it clear that my time is limited: I don't have anything to prove to anybody but God and Christ. I addressed some of your claims; however, we arrived at a stalemate. My time and your time is likely better spent elsewhere. All the best.
FR, one more thing. I guess you like to ignore the Trinitarian scholars that disagree with you, like Bock and Schnabel. I'm not saying that anyone should be compelled to accept something because a scholar says it, but you act like we have nothing on our side to support our view. Your reading of Acts also seems to be ahistorical.
And the reason Jesus knows hearts is because he was anointed with holy spirit at his baptism; that spirit imparted power to him and gave him the ability to discern hearts. Revelation teaches that Jesus has the "seven spirits." Again, it's apparently the holy spirit that allows Jesus to read hearts, not his God nature, as you surmise.
You are once again dodging the evidence I gave that Lord Jesus is the recipient of prayer in Acts 1:24-25.
This isn't surprising.
I'll repeat what I wrote you earlier, and this also applies to anyone else:
If you know of any person, article, and/or website that has dealt with all that I have supplied please let me know.
I did not ignore any Trinitarian scholar or any other scholar. None of them have ever dealt with the evidence I supplied. You keep dodging this issue because there are none who have taken into account what I have supplied. You haven't produced any.
John Schoenheit: The evidence shows that this prayer is to Jesus, not to the Father.
https://www.revisedenglishversion.com/Commentary/Acts
The above is a Unitarian (I can supply more if need be) that affirms Jesus is the recipient of prayer in Acts 1:24-25. However, the point still remains in which I asserted in the first paragraph - you haven't cited anyone, because you can't.
You ignored 1 Kings 8:39 that teaches God "alone" has this knowledge of all human hearts. If you say God gave Jesus the ability to knows the hearts of all then that shows what applies to God alone encompasses the Lord Jesus.
Commentary opinion is not "proof". I still disagree with the commentary. As v21 uses the title "lord Jesus" where v24 uses "lord" and if we are going to bother listening to the gospels his disciples had already been instructed how to pray.
John 16:23,24 - even if in "Jesus name" it is still to the father.
"The father is not the son" - and you like many other Trinitarians I have spoken to when backed into a corner start using modalism in you reasoning while denying it is and I can see it in a number of your comments to Edgar. I think I am going to leave it at that until such time as you actually find something more solid than commentary.
Duncan,
The proof primarily is how the other words are used elsewhere in Scripture in reference to the Lord. This you have not addressed.
The Father is not the Son. That is not Trinitarianism.
You can leave because that will be your way of escape from dealing with the evidence I presented.
Then give me some proof beyond the "Robert Bowman, Jr." play book that is being regurgitated all across the web?
Duncan,
Then see my second post. By the way none of it I got from Robert Bowman. So you can bury that lame excuse for your failure to address what I have written.
1 Sam 24:9 LXX - try reading my posts.
"My master" is the translation used at 24:9.
http://greekdoc.com/polyglot/1sam24.html
So now the onus is on you to give some form of proof that it does NOT mean master in any give verse of the NT? Perhaps this is why it is only used for Jesus.
The NT does not live in a vaccumme and there is no such thing as sola scriptura.
You need to get past that before jumping ahead to any other point in your list.
https://biblehub.com/text/luke/10-1.htm - what is your point here?
Just goes to show how far a person will go to find what they want to find.
One has to wonder why in all the almost 2000 years of debate these points have not really come up on either side of the debate. Perhaps because they are not points at all?
Nothing you wrote negates the valdity of the points I made. You simply hope they are not points at all when many others have brought up at least one and/or some of them. Let me know if you would like to see quite a few of them and I can supply them for you. That is if you are interested in seeing the truth instead of making up lame excuses in order to avoid it.
Tell me how the usage in all LXX textual variants (so probably applicable to OG usage too) that the term translated "lord" does not mean "master", as opposed to god or YHVH. Isn't every other item listed based on your assumption on what κύριε is supposed to signify?
Your statement - "it is important to keep in mind that whenever a word from this prayer is found in another context of Scripture the Lord always refers to the Lord Jesus." is incorrect as the LXX OT does use it in other context as demonstrated (to Saul). Presumably you mean NT usage?
See:- https://www.academia.edu/11305545/The_Septuagint_and_the_Hebrew_Bible_Old_Testament_A_Conversation
Frankly, word matches are irrelevant and I refer you back to John 16:23-24 which most scholars think was written later than Acts (not my position, but never the less), if correct somewhat reinforces the point, rather than weaken it.
Luke 10:1 - "show"?https://biblehub.com/greek/anadeixon_322.htm
One has to clarify point one before moving to point 2.
"chosen" - https://biblehub.com/greek/exelexo__1586.htm
"ministry" - https://biblehub.com/greek/diakonias_1248.htm
Yes, Duncan, in the New Testament. Jesus was not yet incarnated during the Old Testament.
Maybe one day you can actually address the evidence. It is both comical and sad to see your evasiveness.
In terms of your confusion concerning John 16:23 see here:
https://www.revisedenglishversion.com/comm/John/16/nav23
and this:
W. E. Vine: The Lord did not mean that no prayer must be offered to Him afterwards. They did address Him in prayer, Acts 1:24; 7:59 (John - His Record of Christ, page 154).
Look, I am giving you scripture for comparison and you are just giving me commentary again. Have you just dropped your list above? It seem that you are the one evading the subject - that you selected.
John 21:25, so at least in John each point was recorded to make a point.
For John 14:14 compare John 14:25.
So when was Jesus going to deal with anything they asked? This is basic context.
There is no confusion with John 16:23.
For Acts 7:59 do you know what a Hebraism is?
Compare ἔκραξεν and ἐπικαλούμενον. This is not a prayer based on the wordplay. In both instances he called out. Just as Jesus did in the temple John 7:28
There are a number of Hebraism's in Acts 7 - just an example https://www.kjvtoday.com/home/exceeding-fair-or-beautiful-in-gods-sight-in-acts-720
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