tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13958708.post1774376820676488735..comments2024-03-28T22:55:23.525-07:00Comments on Foster's Theological Reflections: Stephen B. Miller's Remarks About Daniel 3:25Edgar Fosterhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00280475259670777653noreply@blogger.comBlogger48125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13958708.post-10645781983713494002019-02-18T17:38:16.339-08:002019-02-18T17:38:16.339-08:00The point about 7 demons is tangential, IMO, but s...The point about 7 demons is tangential, IMO, but some of them were evil (it seems). I'm not going to debate the isue, but the reader can decide for him/herself:<br /><br />http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/5085-demonology<br /><br />http://oracc.museum.upenn.edu/amgg/listofdeities/enki/<br /><br />Edgar Fosterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00280475259670777653noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13958708.post-15127594937844707492019-02-18T14:09:10.105-08:002019-02-18T14:09:10.105-08:00https://deepblue.lib.umich.edu/bitstream/handle/20...https://deepblue.lib.umich.edu/bitstream/handle/2027.42/113660/gvkonsta_1.pdf?sequence=1&isAllowed=y<br /><br />See page 10.Duncanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14509064648619505383noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13958708.post-34867366050952072832019-02-18T13:11:44.783-08:002019-02-18T13:11:44.783-08:00Yes, but bear in mind that when I say 7 demons it ...Yes, but bear in mind that when I say 7 demons it does not carry the Christian connotations. These were perceived as neither good or evil.Duncanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14509064648619505383noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13958708.post-6859848413282429262019-02-18T08:44:08.726-08:002019-02-18T08:44:08.726-08:00Note the comments here pertaining to Dan. 3:19: ht...Note the comments here pertaining to Dan. 3:19: http://www.spiritandtruth.org/teaching/Book_of_Daniel/commentary/htm/chapters/03.html#26606<br /><br />Not really a surprise about the origin of seven demons. But later, in the near future, I want to address the 666/616 issue.Edgar Fosterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00280475259670777653noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13958708.post-60406749474690963752019-02-18T08:01:13.447-08:002019-02-18T08:01:13.447-08:00Seven Angels is a late concept but seven demons is...Seven Angels is a late concept but seven demons is not & it has a Babylonian origin.Duncanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14509064648619505383noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13958708.post-52800549135830762022019-02-18T07:49:41.566-08:002019-02-18T07:49:41.566-08:00Either way, the scholars who indicate that 7 refer...Either way, the scholars who indicate that 7 refers to maximal intensity seem to have a point, whether the king said it that exact way or not. We also don't know whether Daniel was there or not. Strange that he wasn't thrown in the fire or even mentioned. <br /><br />Seven archangels is a relatively late concept.Edgar Fosterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00280475259670777653noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13958708.post-56354271035582385552019-02-18T07:14:21.476-08:002019-02-18T07:14:21.476-08:00https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seven_Archangelshttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seven_ArchangelsDuncanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14509064648619505383noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13958708.post-20751006180035225632019-02-18T07:12:35.822-08:002019-02-18T07:12:35.822-08:00Doesn't the account in effect say that everyon...Doesn't the account in effect say that everyone was their, thus implicating Daniel as an eye witness?Duncanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14509064648619505383noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13958708.post-72127220504416185802019-02-18T07:07:31.498-08:002019-02-18T07:07:31.498-08:00https://arxiv.org/ftp/arxiv/papers/1407/1407.6246....https://arxiv.org/ftp/arxiv/papers/1407/1407.6246.pdf<br /><br />So it looks like "7" was special to them but not in the same way as the Hebrews.<br /><br />What might this mean for the kings statement?Duncanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14509064648619505383noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13958708.post-18495572537384989972019-02-18T06:41:59.795-08:002019-02-18T06:41:59.795-08:00We also don't know with absolute certainty, wh...We also don't know with absolute certainty, who the mlk YHWH was. Could have been Michael/ Christ, but we don't know for sure.Edgar Fosterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00280475259670777653noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13958708.post-5404198263097756592019-02-18T06:37:28.867-08:002019-02-18T06:37:28.867-08:00Well, you asked if the king really said the fire w...Well, you asked if the king really said the fire was 7 times hotter because of the sexagesimal system. I was just pointing out that yes, he could have made the statement or one equivalent to it. Or Daniel could have translated it. And why would he have to be an eyewitness in order to report the Kong's words? It could have been related to him, etc.Edgar Fosterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00280475259670777653noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13958708.post-44245542481794868362019-02-18T02:12:37.985-08:002019-02-18T02:12:37.985-08:00"Daniel is giving the account?" - So Dan..."Daniel is giving the account?" - So Daniel was their ?Duncanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14509064648619505383noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13958708.post-64944194457958483402019-02-18T01:47:50.438-08:002019-02-18T01:47:50.438-08:00"The base 6 numerical system is the reason wh..."The base 6 numerical system is the reason why Babylonians chose 12 months instead of 10 for their calendar".<br /><br />http://factsanddetails.com/world/cat56/sub402/entry-6083.htmlDuncanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14509064648619505383noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13958708.post-84675684028094593082019-02-18T01:31:49.886-08:002019-02-18T01:31:49.886-08:00They invented and developed arithmetic using sever...They invented and developed arithmetic using several different number systems including a mixed radix system with an alternating base 10 and base 6. It is still partially used for measuring time and angles.<br /><br />One can accommodate the number 7 in any system from binary to hexadecimal and beyond but is that the point?<br /><br />"Now, as Donohue (2008) and Evans (2009) show, base-6 can equally be<br />motivated through body-part tallying. They can point to real finger-counting<br />practices in the South New Guinean speech communities concerned; earlier,<br />Kewitsch (1904) had to resort to conjecture when he sought a motive for the<br />salience of 6 and 60 in Sumerian (or indeed pre-Sumerian) mathematics, previously explained in terms of astronomy:1" pg 338<br />https://www.researchgate.net/publication/249932141_Senary_summary_so_far/download<br />So base six is relevant but may not relate to astrology but IMO it does.<br /><br />http://php.math.unifi.it/archimede/archimede/laboratori/materiali/sumeriENG-giusti.pdf<br /><br />But I think it is no coincidence that the terms "Babylon the great" & "666" or "616" (of which I am now in favor) are used in Revelation. I do not think it has anything to do with Greek or Latin.<br /><br />Interpolation in interpretation - are we then saying that Michael is possibly NOT the angel of Jehovah?<br /><br />Duncanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14509064648619505383noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13958708.post-38351629201331702082019-02-17T08:44:29.417-08:002019-02-17T08:44:29.417-08:00Sexagesimal is actually base 60, and I believe it ...Sexagesimal is actually base 60, and I believe it can accommodate/express the number, 7, in sexagesimal terms. Edgar Fosterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00280475259670777653noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13958708.post-55740552131479301672019-02-17T08:40:50.046-08:002019-02-17T08:40:50.046-08:00Why not an Aramaic rendering of the king's lan...Why not an Aramaic rendering of the king's language since Daniel is giving the account? I don't see the 7 times hotter language being an impediment to viewing the words as belonging to the king. Neither do the commentators I've consulted.<br /><br />The angel of Jehovah is relevant (IMO) only insofar as the idea seems to have developed before Daniel was written, and it possibly lends credence to the notion that an actual spirit being delivered the three Hebrews and later, Daniel. I am not saying that the "angel" in the fire was the mlk YHWH, but just noting that Daniel is possibly using "angel" to mean a spirit being although the king mentions the angel.<br /><br />Personally, I don't think Daniel is heavily interpolated either. Not sure what examples of interpolation you have in mind.<br /><br />Edgar Fosterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00280475259670777653noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13958708.post-53600927245201271292019-02-16T23:24:31.562-08:002019-02-16T23:24:31.562-08:00I still do not think that the angel of Jehovah is ...I still do not think that the angel of Jehovah is relevant to Daniel since his messengers carry other names and there are more than one. The name "Jehovah" is used in Daniel so the designation could have been used. To much interpolation here.Duncanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14509064648619505383noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13958708.post-72115543327889638632019-02-16T23:08:42.689-08:002019-02-16T23:08:42.689-08:00Are the words the king's or not?
Base 6 is hi...Are the words the king's or not?<br /><br />Base 6 is his language.Duncanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14509064648619505383noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13958708.post-52206693366545038302019-02-16T22:01:51.783-08:002019-02-16T22:01:51.783-08:00NIV Cultural Backgrounds Study Bible: "[Danie...NIV Cultural Backgrounds Study Bible: "[Daniel] 3:19 seven times hotter. This is hyperbole. The brick kilns of the time normally operated at around 1650°F (900°C). With the technology available it would not have been possible even to double this temperature."<br /><br />Edgar Fosterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00280475259670777653noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13958708.post-40626164133217290462019-02-16T18:01:05.755-08:002019-02-16T18:01:05.755-08:00I don't think the writers I cited above limit ...I don't think the writers I cited above limit the idiom to Babylon: it could be a Semitic idiom. <br /><br />The quote above mentions "cult of the angels" which likely did appear later. But angelology or belief in angels seems to have materialized earlier, including language about the mlk YHWH. See Stuckenbruck and Hannah.<br /><br />https://www.baylorpress.com/9781481307987/angel-veneration-and-christology/<br /><br />Another interesting work is https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/ajs-review/article/saul-m-olyan-a-thousand-thousands-served-him-exegesis-and-the-naming-of-angels-in-ancient-judaism-texte-und-studien-zum-antiken-judentum-36-tubingen-j-c-b-mohr-paul-siebeck-1993-xiv-148-pp/376AF2D73147B9D1CDB12C6BD79A4B93<br /><br />I'm not sure how the sexagesimal article is tied to 7 times hotter. Maybe you could enlighten me. Edgar Fosterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00280475259670777653noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13958708.post-72620235871978264722019-02-16T12:58:44.412-08:002019-02-16T12:58:44.412-08:00https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexagesimalhttps://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/SexagesimalDuncanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14509064648619505383noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13958708.post-6132155720950095102019-02-16T12:51:46.375-08:002019-02-16T12:51:46.375-08:00"The cult of the angels among the Semites enj..."The cult of the angels among the Semites enjoyed popular favor during the last centuries of the first millenium B. C. and the first centuries of our era"<br />These are later when there seems to be an obsession with "angels" in general.<br /><br />Duncanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14509064648619505383noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13958708.post-7650685675458740772019-02-16T12:45:31.939-08:002019-02-16T12:45:31.939-08:00A Babylonian idiom?A Babylonian idiom?Duncanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14509064648619505383noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13958708.post-75001207891158634292019-02-15T15:59:20.273-08:002019-02-15T15:59:20.273-08:007 times hotter could be a literary device. This is...7 times hotter could be a literary device. This is what Stephen R. Miller suggests based on comments from Baldwin and Hartman. Compare Proverbs 24:16; 26:16. Hartman points out that Daniel 3:19 is saying in idiomatic fashion that the furnace was heated to "maximum intensity."<br /><br />Edgar Fosterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00280475259670777653noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13958708.post-76443386478681586112019-02-15T15:52:34.247-08:002019-02-15T15:52:34.247-08:00Not so sure that the angel is the high priest in t...Not so sure that the angel is the high priest in that context. <br /><br />See https://www.academia.edu/8321179/_Archaeological_and_Inscriptional_Evidence_for_Phoenician_Astarte_pp._167-94_in_D._Sugimoto_ed._Transformation_of_a_Goddess_Ishtar_-_Astarte_-_Aphrodite._Fribourg_Academic_and_Gottingen_Vandenhoeck_and_Ruprecht_2014<br /><br />Also see https://janes.scholasticahq.com/article/2173.pdf<br /><br />"The Nabataean Presence at Palmyra."<br /><br />Compare https://www.jstor.org/stable/41880192?seq=1#page_scan_tab_contentsEdgar Fosterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00280475259670777653noreply@blogger.com