tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13958708.post5040326010978869865..comments2024-03-28T13:18:18.245-07:00Comments on Foster's Theological Reflections: Ancient Ecclesiastical Views on Proverbs 8:22Edgar Fosterhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00280475259670777653noreply@blogger.comBlogger4125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13958708.post-46492677796696562052012-10-29T11:58:44.913-07:002012-10-29T11:58:44.913-07:00Hi Matt13,
I believe that the Greek construction ...Hi Matt13,<br /><br />I believe that the Greek construction in Proverbs 8:21-22 (LXX) is idiomatic. While some of the literal translations might work, I think "the things that happen daily" or "the things occurring daily" are preferable renderings. <br /><br />It also seems that γινόμενα ( a present participle) should be construed with τὰ καθ' ἡμέραν rather than with what follows. It cannot be vocative in this context, which as you know is the case of address. So γινόμενα must be accusative, which would limit how the participle is to be construed. Understanding the participle in this way also sheds light on the grammatical function of ἐὰν ἀναγγείλω ὑμῖν. See Brenton's rendering of this passage.<br /><br />Best regards,<br /><br />EdgarEdgar Fosterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00280475259670777653noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13958708.post-59334269258709706062012-10-27T11:46:36.627-07:002012-10-27T11:46:36.627-07:00Hi Edgar.
I have another translation question.
G...Hi Edgar.<br /><br />I have another translation question.<br /><br />GREEK TEXT: “...ἵνα μερίσω τοῖς ἐμὲ ἀγαπῶσιν ὕπαρξιν καὶ τοὺς θησαυροὺς αὐτῶν ἐμπλήσω ἀγαθῶν [21(B)] ἐὰν ἀναγγείλω ὑμῖν τὰ καθ' ἡμέραν γινόμενα μνημονεύσω τὰ ἐξ αἰῶνος ἀριθμῆσαι...” - (Proverbs 8:22 LXX, Septuagint.org text.)<br />http://www.septuagint.org/LXX/Proverbs/8 <br /><br />Gk., ( τὰ καθ' ἡμέραν γινόμενα )<br /><br />One question I have about the text is – could Gk., ( τὰ καθ' ἡμέραν γινόμενα ) be translated:<br /><br />Literally 1: “...the-things according-to days are-coming-into-being...”<br /><br />Translation 1: “...the things coming into existence according to there days...”<br /><br />Or is Gk., ( τὰ καθ' ἡμέραν γινόμενα ) a casual clause, or idomatic phrase? <br /><br />Literally 2: “...the-things according-to days are-happening/are-occurring...”<br /><br />Translation 2: “...the things that happen according to each of there days...” <br /><br />Or 3: “...the things that occur according to each of there days...” <br /><br />Or 4: “...the things occurring according to each of there days...” <br /><br />Or 5: “...the things occurring daily...” <br /><br />Or finally 6: “...the things that happen daily...” - which is the rendering of most English translations of the LXX.<br /><br />The safe bet is a casual idiomatic phrase.<br /><br />But!<br /><br />The --- context --- is --- highly suggestive!<br /><br />Wisdom, (i.e., Jesus in his pre-human existence), being created Gk., ( ἔκτισέν ) ( EKITZEN ) and generated/begotten Gk., ( γεννᾷ ) ( GENNA ) before an age Gk., ( πρὸ τοῦ αἰῶνος [...] ἐν ἀρχῇ ) ( PROS TOU AIONOS […] EN ARCHE ) in a/the beginning. <br /><br />Could the word Gk., ( γινόμενα ) Gk., ( GINOMENA ) be referring to ( the actions ) that take place in the next few verses?<br /><br />Gk., ( γινόμενα ) Gk., ( GINOMENA ) = particle, singular, present, middle person feminine, vocative http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=%CE%B3%CE%B9%CE%BD%CF%8C%CE%BC%CE%B5%CE%BD%CE%B1&la=greek#lexicon<br /><br />It's interesting. <br /><br />Please may I ask what are your thoughts?Matt13weedhackerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16643587467702969643noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13958708.post-43283417739044862862012-10-12T10:19:19.126-07:002012-10-12T10:19:19.126-07:00He Matt13weedhacker,
I agree with your point rega...He Matt13weedhacker,<br /><br />I agree with your point regarding Holmes and Evans. I used Evans when writing my thesis on Tertullian. Souter probably does show less bias. He was quite interested in philology as such. Your comments show one of the major problems with translated Patristic works.<br /><br />Thanks,<br /><br />EdgarEdgar Fosterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00280475259670777653noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13958708.post-8172619807990279292012-10-11T14:20:36.269-07:002012-10-11T14:20:36.269-07:00Hi Edgar.
Another thought provoking blog entry.
...Hi Edgar.<br /><br />Another thought provoking blog entry.<br /><br />The context in the surrounding chapters is interesting.<br /><br />By means of Tertullian.org I was able to compare the Holmes, (quoted above), with Ernest Evans, of Chapters 5-7, with the Latin text. <br /><br />I also compared these with Alexander Souter's translation at archive.org<br /><br />http://www.tertullian.org/works/adversus_praxean.htm<br /><br />Both Holmes and Evans, I find, in places, simply biased toward modern tri{3}nitarianism. <br /><br />One example is in chapter 7, where Holmes adds to the text, this phrase, referring to Jesus: <br /><br />"...Thus does He make Him -- ( equal to ) -- Him..."<br /><br />Which doesn't appear in either Evan's or Souter's translations, nor does there appear to be any real basis for this in the Latin original.<br /><br />But, even within this dubious sentence, therein lies a doctrinal difficulty for the Tri{3}nitarian's:<br /><br />"...( make ) him..."<br /><br />One has to ask what are the implications of the word:<br /><br />"...Make..."?<br /><br />This same doctrinal difficulty appears in a passage in Clement of Alexandria where it says similarly of Jesus, that he was:<br /><br />"...( made ) equal..."<br /><br />Again! One has to ask what are the implications of the word:<br /><br />"...Made..."?<br /><br />Getting back to Tertullian.<br /><br />Alexander Souter's translation makes it clear that the Reason/Word was Ltn., ( creavit ) created Ltn., ( factus ) made first - internally within the mind and thoughts of God and then projected forth to begin external existence according to God's will and purpose as an instrument for the rest of creation.<br /><br />I recommend Alexander Souter as the least bias of the translations and perhaps the most accurate for Against Praxeas.Matt13weedhackerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16643587467702969643noreply@blogger.com