tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13958708.post5197646085770829925..comments2024-03-28T22:55:23.525-07:00Comments on Foster's Theological Reflections: Additional Links for TheopneustosEdgar Fosterhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00280475259670777653noreply@blogger.comBlogger33125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13958708.post-15166983535395962462017-05-24T23:08:37.274-07:002017-05-24T23:08:37.274-07:00https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_educationhttps://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_educationDuncanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14509064648619505383noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13958708.post-42416139473575060462017-05-24T17:47:56.833-07:002017-05-24T17:47:56.833-07:00I don't think anyone (Edersheim, et al.) is de...I don't think anyone (Edersheim, et al.) is denying that Timothy might have been instructed in the synagogues, but we have testimony indicating Jewish parents instructed their children in God's ways and there were also schools. The command in Deut. 6:4-7 is that parents should teach children Jehovah's precepts--we have good reason to believe that pious Jewish parents taught their sons and daughters from infancy.<br /><br />Probably not just anyone could speak at the synagogue. It was Paul's custom to speak there; fittingly, he had been trained by Gamaliel and Jesus spoke there too, also called rabbi by his followers.Edgar Fosterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00280475259670777653noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13958708.post-32945146687338551372017-05-24T15:09:07.653-07:002017-05-24T15:09:07.653-07:00http://www.mastertoolkit.com/vcmedia/2378/2378037....http://www.mastertoolkit.com/vcmedia/2378/2378037.pdf<br /><br />A possible temporary location.Duncanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14509064648619505383noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13958708.post-51739910454812553082017-05-24T15:03:51.794-07:002017-05-24T15:03:51.794-07:00https://www.anatolianroads.org/via-sebaste/https://www.anatolianroads.org/via-sebaste/Duncanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14509064648619505383noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13958708.post-79921444400458679972017-05-24T14:41:00.774-07:002017-05-24T14:41:00.774-07:00What about the synagogue at iconium only 20 miles ...What about the synagogue at iconium only 20 miles away down the via Sebaste. So are these commentary claiming that Timothy and his mother could not travel 20 miles for some Sabbath's at least the prominent ones. What about the fact that Paul was able to teach in the synagogue. Could anyone or was it the fact that he still had the appearance of a Pharisee and the priveledges of that status?Duncanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14509064648619505383noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13958708.post-73140920166021437982017-05-24T09:24:06.898-07:002017-05-24T09:24:06.898-07:00Also see Edersheim at these links: https://www.blu...Also see Edersheim at these links: https://www.blueletterbible.org/Comm/edersheim_alfred/sketches/sketches07.cfm<br /><br />https://www.blueletterbible.org/Comm/edersheim_alfred/sketches/sketches08.cfmEdgar Fosterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00280475259670777653noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13958708.post-31932848749742733132017-05-24T09:08:45.939-07:002017-05-24T09:08:45.939-07:00I think the Hebrew term means holy, sacred, consec...I think the Hebrew term means holy, sacred, consecrated--but "special" in English is not necessarily synonymous with holy. For example, giving your child a special treat after the meeting. We would hardly say it's holy.<br /><br />No disagreement about readings in the synagogue, but that was not the only place that God's word was heard. Children learned from their parents at a very young age. The word was circulated in other venues too. It was not only heard at the temple or synagogue.<br /><br />On 2 Tim 3:15; 1 Cor 9:13, they both use ἱερὰ, but in different ways. One verse uses the term adjectivally, but the other does it substantivally.<br /><br />See https://billmounce.com/greek-dictionary/hierosEdgar Fosterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00280475259670777653noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13958708.post-40354535208031000212017-05-24T08:58:49.575-07:002017-05-24T08:58:49.575-07:00There are too many examples of hieros/hieron in th...There are too many examples of hieros/hieron in the LXX for me to check, but I know from previous studies that hieron is normally the word used for the temple. See https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/trench/section.cfm?sectionID=3<br /><br />I dont know why JMNT uses "temple writings," unless there is some confusion between hieros/hieron. The adjective in 2 Tim 3:15 is clearly modifying "writings," and it should be rendered "holy" or something to that effect.<br /><br />Temple writings (i.e., the Torah/Law of Moses) skews the textual meaning. Note how both Josephus and Philo refer to the sacred writings: http://biblehub.com/greek/2413.htm<br /><br />From Henry Alford: The expression carries the learning back to his extreme infancy: see Ellic. here) thou hast known the (with or without the art., this will be the rendering) holy scriptures (of the O. T. This expression for the Scriptures, not elsewhere found in the N. T. (hardly, as Huther, John 7:15), is common in Josephus: see Wetst.: cf. also reff. 2 Macc.) which are able (not as Bengel, “ ‘quæ poterant:’ vis præteriti ex nosti redundat in participium:” for οἶδας is necessarily present in signification: ‘thou hast known … which were’ would be a solœcism) to make thee wise <br /><br />See also http://studybible.info/vines/SacredEdgar Fosterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00280475259670777653noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13958708.post-86380015189202619872017-05-24T08:07:56.153-07:002017-05-24T08:07:56.153-07:00Acts 17:2Acts 17:2Duncanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14509064648619505383noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13958708.post-10672958315920348652017-05-24T02:32:35.456-07:002017-05-24T02:32:35.456-07:00http://lexicon.katabiblon.com/index.php?lemma=%E1%...http://lexicon.katabiblon.com/index.php?lemma=%E1%BC%B1%CE%B5%CF%81%E1%BD%B9%CE%BD<br /><br />Why is 1Cor 9:13, 2Tm 3:15 listed together?<br />Duncanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14509064648619505383noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13958708.post-74952957631727190322017-05-24T02:05:55.097-07:002017-05-24T02:05:55.097-07:00"There are two main options regarding the phr..."There are two main options regarding the phrase "Moses' Seat." Some say "that in every synagogue there was an actual chair called a 'Moses' Seat' in which the leaders of the congregation would sit and teach with authority. The other opinion was that 'Moses' seat' was a figure of speech indicating someone who teaches with the authority of Moses. Either way, the statement that the Pharisees sit in 'Moses' seat' meant that they have some kind of Mosaic authority" (The Hebrew Yeshua Vs. the Greek Jesus, pp. 2-3).<br /><br />It can, in fact, be shown that "Moses' Seat" is a symbolic, physical seat within ancient synagogues where the scribes or Pharisees would sit during services. It was a seat of authority and judgment within Pharisaical Judaism, usually beautifully and ornately carved and located in a prominent position within the synagogue. Archaeologists have found stone chairs in ancient synagogues in Hamath, Chorazin, En-Gedi and Delos next to where the law was kept, which served the same function. When reading from scripture, the reader would apparently sit in this chair and expound to the congregation."Duncanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14509064648619505383noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13958708.post-10347644663745212502017-05-24T01:50:49.850-07:002017-05-24T01:50:49.850-07:00"even writing/scripture was primarily communi..."even writing/scripture was primarily communicated/assimilated orally in the first century due to the literacy rates at that time." - but hearing what from whom and where? (CF "Moses seat")Duncanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14509064648619505383noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13958708.post-27688921872250258512017-05-24T01:47:51.899-07:002017-05-24T01:47:51.899-07:00"special, but also holy" - What do the t..."special, but also holy" - What do the think the Hebrew term means?Duncanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14509064648619505383noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13958708.post-61477813144529336172017-05-24T01:46:16.286-07:002017-05-24T01:46:16.286-07:00Responding to your comment about "temple"...Responding to your comment about "temple" see JMNT translation:-<br /><br />2Ti 3:15 and that from an infant (babe) you have seen and thus know [the] sacred Scriptures (Temple writings): the ones being constantly able (those continuously having power) to give you wisdom -- [that leads you] into deliverance (wholeness, good health, rescue and salvation) -- through Jesus’ faith, resident within Christ (or: through means of faith (trust) that [is] in Jesus Christ).<br /><br />Now I am sure he would not have inserted this here without any justification.<br /><br />https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=TcHY_AjOfYMC&pg=PT22&lpg=PT22&dq=2+tim+3:15+%22temple+writings%22&source=bl&ots=SckM2NmZSV&sig=ke4Wmwme-uFGmGTSP6EhFfxQnx0&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwilxoivkYjUAhXoI8AKHUr7C8sQ6AEIKjAB#v=onepage&q=2%20tim%203%3A15%20%22temple%20writings%22&f=false<br /><br />https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=AvmNgR4ao8UC&pg=PA172&dq=2+tim+3:15+%22temple+writings%22+-second&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwim9aDxkYjUAhUXOsAKHTLxBtMQ6AEIJDAA#v=onepage&q=2%20tim%203%3A15%20%22temple%20writings%22%20-second&f=falseDuncanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14509064648619505383noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13958708.post-65388595118050330582017-05-23T09:36:21.220-07:002017-05-23T09:36:21.220-07:00Not meaning to nitpick Nelte, but he writes:
In b...Not meaning to nitpick Nelte, but he writes:<br /><br />In biblical Greek an adjective may precede or follow the noun it describes. While we do not use such a grammatical construction in English, placing an adjective after the noun is quite common in several other languages. One need only think of Italian expressions like "mamma mia" (rather than "mia mamma") to see an illustration of this grammatical construction. In the above Greek text of this verse we see one adjective preceding the noun "graphe", while the second adjective follows this noun "graphe". <br /><br />[END QUOTE]<br /><br />Actually, we do have both attributive adjectives in English and predicative adjectives. See https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/grammar/attributive-and-predicative-adjectives<br /><br />Furthermore, it is unremarkable that 2 Tim 3:16 does not have a singular verb.Edgar Fosterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00280475259670777653noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13958708.post-83544334631890569752017-05-23T08:44:44.914-07:002017-05-23T08:44:44.914-07:00I understand the distinction you're making bet...I understand the distinction you're making between "you hear it said" vs. what is written. Nevertheless, even writing/scripture was primarily communicated/assimilated orally in the first century due to the literacy rates at that time. Think about how long Buddhist "scripture" (the sutras) remained in oral form before someone decided to write them down. Either way, when John 2:22 uses GRAFH, it is still referring to Scripture as a whole or to a passage of the holy writings. I don't believe John 2:22 undermines translating GRAFH as scripture in 2 Tim 3:16, which was the main point I was making as a rejoinder to Mr. Nelte.Edgar Fosterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00280475259670777653noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13958708.post-9440718566168529632017-05-23T08:30:41.062-07:002017-05-23T08:30:41.062-07:00Thanks for the correction: I did mean 2 Tim 3:15. ...Thanks for the correction: I did mean 2 Tim 3:15. Now concerning ἱερός, we must distinguish between that form and ἱερόν, which is the neuter substantive form of the adjective ἱερός. What I find is that the LXX/OG normally uses some form of the substantive ἱερόν when referring to the temple. However, ἱερός is clearly modifying "writings" in 2 Tim 3:15--i.e., clearly not referring to the temple in this case.<br /><br />See http://lexicon.katabiblon.com/index.php?lemma=%E1%BC%B1%CE%B5%CF%81%E1%BD%B9%CE%BD<br /><br />My point about the mention of holy writings within the proximity of GRAFH is that such wording indicates that GRAFH, in this context, refers to sacred/holy writings, that is, scripture and not just any special writings. All writing = all scripture, in 2 Tim 3:16. The writing is not just special, but also holy within a Judaeo-Christian context.<br /><br />See http://www.dictionary.com/browse/scripture<br /><br />Edgar Fosterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00280475259670777653noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13958708.post-73465056388803158082017-05-23T02:23:15.951-07:002017-05-23T02:23:15.951-07:00"Furthermore, it is no accident that the holy..."Furthermore, it is no accident that the holy writings and GRAFH are mentioned in such close proximity." - I am still not getting your point as special writings are still writings.<br /><br />Take for example the Geneva & KJV1611 - the literacy tools for a large proportion of the English speaking world - did the majority know Shakespeare at the same time or even Chaucer? So what was the thing written for the majority?<br /><br />In the NT we have two sets of people. The "you hear it said" & the "it is written" - The temple writings would be by far the biggest exposure that first century Jews, including diaspora would have two writing in general.<br /><br />I find it interesting how the term is used in the NT writings that are more Jewish in scope & how the highest frequency of use in in the gospel of John. <br /><br />John 2:22 When then he was raised from the dead, [remembered his disciples] that this he said to them; and they believed in the scripture (graphe), and in the word (logos) >>which Jesus spoke<<.<br /><br />The thing Read & the thing Heard.Duncanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14509064648619505383noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13958708.post-56083344432649732322017-05-23T01:31:04.324-07:002017-05-23T01:31:04.324-07:00"To the point about scripture, let me add tha..."To the point about scripture, let me add that GRAFH was also a fixed way of referring to the holy writings (2 Tim. 3:14) in antiquity. So whether one translates as "writing" or scripture, it's the same result."<br /><br />Do you mean 2 Tim 3:15? Of course ἱερός is used fairly consistently in the LXX to refer to "Temple". <br /><br />Duncanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14509064648619505383noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13958708.post-66529955655549300822017-05-22T23:51:28.495-07:002017-05-22T23:51:28.495-07:00Isaiah 28:16 John 20:9 Isaiah 25:8.Isaiah 28:16 John 20:9 Isaiah 25:8.Duncanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14509064648619505383noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13958708.post-44839113695323047352017-05-22T23:44:44.150-07:002017-05-22T23:44:44.150-07:00Sorry, brilldag sites 1 cor 15:3.Sorry, brilldag sites 1 cor 15:3.Duncanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14509064648619505383noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13958708.post-44583447063901376152017-05-22T15:40:23.809-07:002017-05-22T15:40:23.809-07:00Haer is probably Irenaeus, Against Heresies. It is...Haer is probably Irenaeus, Against Heresies. It is usually easy to find online.Edgar Fosterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00280475259670777653noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13958708.post-89734440696234495362017-05-22T15:36:09.018-07:002017-05-22T15:36:09.018-07:00For GRAFH, Louw and Nida give "a particular p...For GRAFH, Louw and Nida give "a particular passage of the OT, Scripture" by which they mean the OT. See Romans 10:11. Compare Mark 12:24.Edgar Fosterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00280475259670777653noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13958708.post-10124479791586609852017-05-22T15:35:34.207-07:002017-05-22T15:35:34.207-07:00For NT brilldag primarily sites 1 cor 5:3 & Lu...For NT brilldag primarily sites 1 cor 5:3 & Luke 4:21.<br /><br />Also haer 1.1.3 but I am having trouble finding the key for this work and the Greek fonts used are not the easiest to read.Duncanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14509064648619505383noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13958708.post-64051666014156997712017-05-22T14:57:56.630-07:002017-05-22T14:57:56.630-07:00Thanks, Duncan. Just to clarify, I am not denying ...Thanks, Duncan. Just to clarify, I am not denying that grafh can mean "writing" but it can be used for the holy writings as well, that is, scripture. Edgar Fosterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00280475259670777653noreply@blogger.com