tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13958708.post5350989939680303704..comments2024-03-28T00:08:14.247-07:00Comments on Foster's Theological Reflections: "Sons of God" in the Old Testament (Quotes from BDB and Gesenius)Edgar Fosterhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00280475259670777653noreply@blogger.comBlogger91125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13958708.post-12536462987177896792017-08-19T15:07:13.831-07:002017-08-19T15:07:13.831-07:00Of course the Roman side of things does not necess...Of course the Roman side of things does not necessarily affect the Hebrew and there are other possibilities for why others called Jesus - Lord. One being tied up with those calling him "son of David" too. To them he may have been a property owner - the whole of Israel. "The lord said to my lord" mat 22:41-46. John 18:1-5.Duncanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14509064648619505383noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13958708.post-48575837064601685522017-08-19T09:57:47.927-07:002017-08-19T09:57:47.927-07:00Concerning Isa 16:8: my point is that the verse pr...Concerning Isa 16:8: my point is that the verse probably had no effect on the Christian use of kurios. <br /><br />Octavian's (Augustus) dates are from 63 BCE-14 CE. I still do not see how the practice of bread and circuses had any impact either, on how Christians employed kurios, but I have said my peace.<br /><br />I took a course in Roman history as part of the classics curriculum. It was one of my least favorite classes at the time, although I'm now glad that I took it. We had to learn about the various Roman emperors and know the praenomen, nomen, and cognomen of many prominent Romans. Augustus was evidently a major player in Roman history, but I don't think there is a connection between him and kurios. But I could be mistaken.Edgar Fosterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00280475259670777653noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13958708.post-31534748916587433852017-08-19T00:14:57.756-07:002017-08-19T00:14:57.756-07:00http://www.pbs.org/empires/romans/empire/plebians....http://www.pbs.org/empires/romans/empire/plebians.html<br /><br />Note Augustus is somewhat earlier.Duncanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14509064648619505383noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13958708.post-13668740425796833882017-08-19T00:07:17.661-07:002017-08-19T00:07:17.661-07:00http://dssenglishbible.com/isaiah%2016.htm
As for...http://dssenglishbible.com/isaiah%2016.htm<br /><br />As for isaiah 16:8 we know that Jews developed an aversion to the term Baal and tried to write it out. So the LXX rendering is no suprise.Duncanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14509064648619505383noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13958708.post-70672514001175285312017-08-18T19:11:09.381-07:002017-08-18T19:11:09.381-07:00My final remarks on this thread:
If my eyes are n...My final remarks on this thread:<br /><br />If my eyes are not deceiving me, baal appears in the Hebrew Isaiah 16:8, but kurios is not in the LXX Isaiah.<br /><br />Did you read about the person, who invented the terminology "bread and circuses"? I think he was born circa 55 CE and died ca. 127 CE. So it is difficult to see how the practice affected the Christian use of kurios.<br /><br />Gen 41:31? <br /><br />I am not sure about the reason for citing Gen 50:10 LXX either. Thought we were discussing kurios now. :)<br />Edgar Fosterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00280475259670777653noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13958708.post-42271547286503007612017-08-18T14:44:58.377-07:002017-08-18T14:44:58.377-07:00Gen 50:10 lxxGen 50:10 lxxDuncanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14509064648619505383noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13958708.post-26906563083183316392017-08-18T14:43:12.251-07:002017-08-18T14:43:12.251-07:00Gen 41:31 lxxGen 41:31 lxxDuncanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14509064648619505383noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13958708.post-587339167559797052017-08-18T14:18:47.909-07:002017-08-18T14:18:47.909-07:00https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_agriculturehttps://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_agricultureDuncanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14509064648619505383noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13958708.post-2002740400885687412017-08-18T13:24:19.886-07:002017-08-18T13:24:19.886-07:00**Already long ago**, from when we sold our vote t...**Already long ago**, from when we sold our vote to no man, the People have abdicated our duties; for the People who once upon a time handed out military command, high civil office, legions — everything, now restrains itself and anxiously hopes for just two things: bread and circusesDuncanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14509064648619505383noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13958708.post-27421511379516277952017-08-18T13:16:08.003-07:002017-08-18T13:16:08.003-07:00Isaiah 16:8Isaiah 16:8Duncanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14509064648619505383noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13958708.post-30656091280896132612017-08-18T10:54:21.382-07:002017-08-18T10:54:21.382-07:00I will allow any followup comments in this thread,...I will allow any followup comments in this thread, but in my judgment, we are straying from the original question. I will probably begin a different blog entry about kurios.Edgar Fosterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00280475259670777653noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13958708.post-5910963039848985322017-08-18T10:52:50.039-07:002017-08-18T10:52:50.039-07:00Thanks for the clarification about the altar. I di...Thanks for the clarification about the altar. I did not think the QEOS/theos statement was controversial.<br /><br />See http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus:text:1999.04.0057:entry=ku/rios<br /><br />for a historical treatment of kurios. <br /><br />We have gone through the diachronic/etymology debate, so you know where I stand there. Baal and kurios could be linked diachronically, but I am not sure that is even the case. By the time we reach the first century CE, I believe kurios has acquired other meanings and it is not necessarily tied to being a food provider. IMO, neither is the Latin, dominus, primarily associated with the food provider idea either. <br /><br />As for the title Caesar, it did not even exist in the capacity of an imperial term until 68/69 CE. My understanding is that Julius Caesar was posthumously deified although his family name is the basis for the imperial title, Caesar. So Julius did not actually claim the title since it wasn't used that way in his time. Octavian (Julius' great-nephew and adoptive son) is considered the first Roman emperor. After Octavian, there were many Caesars.<br /><br />When you mention Caesar feeding people, I assume you mean the famed "panem et circenses." In any event, for numerous reasons including some outlined here, I do not see kurios limited/restricted to a land owner or food provider in the first century CE. <br /><br />According to the Gospel narratives, I believe Jesus was called Lord before he did any feeding, and we know he did not own land or property by his own admission.Edgar Fosterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00280475259670777653noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13958708.post-14187159297972984642017-08-18T00:41:02.491-07:002017-08-18T00:41:02.491-07:00Also I think something fundamental is being my mis...Also I think something fundamental is being my missed about the use of the term kurios, in that its fundamental use is closely linked to tho old term Baal in as much as relating to a land owner and food provider.<br /><br />Cesar was known for feeding bread to the masses in Rome & would claim the title for him self in the politics of the day.<br /><br />Was Jesus ever called kurios by his disciples prior to him feeding the masses?Duncanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14509064648619505383noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13958708.post-22462383341846579742017-08-18T00:26:28.467-07:002017-08-18T00:26:28.467-07:00http://www.nbcnews.com/id/9950210/ns/technology_an...http://www.nbcnews.com/id/9950210/ns/technology_and_science-science/t/archaeologists-unveil-ancient-church-israel/#.WZaU2JDTVpU<br /><br />As for the alter it was actually Latin - stating just deo.Duncanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14509064648619505383noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13958708.post-17664998087754288352017-08-17T14:50:37.304-07:002017-08-17T14:50:37.304-07:00I mean the part about theosI mean the part about theosEdgar Fosterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00280475259670777653noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13958708.post-66361760089288118372017-08-17T14:49:45.676-07:002017-08-17T14:49:45.676-07:00The lexical semantics quote is part of a larger di...The lexical semantics quote is part of a larger discussion in the book, but how does it change the flow? Can you remind me how the images you sent me undermine what is written above? I think that part is fairly uncontroversial.Edgar Fosterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00280475259670777653noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13958708.post-7778306616892507432017-08-17T14:35:30.744-07:002017-08-17T14:35:30.744-07:00As for _Lexical Semantics of the GNT (1992)_,
Tha...As for _Lexical Semantics of the GNT (1992)_,<br /><br />That quotes changes subject in mid flow and I think the images is sent you from vindolanda argue against the reasoning regarding ho qeos.Duncanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14509064648619505383noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13958708.post-44639507262602931482017-08-17T14:25:20.446-07:002017-08-17T14:25:20.446-07:00It's very interesting how LXx understands Gen ...It's very interesting how LXx understands Gen 10:8 in relation to other occurrences.Duncanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14509064648619505383noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13958708.post-48360831279131682532017-08-17T09:41:17.386-07:002017-08-17T09:41:17.386-07:00Not that I completely agree with L-N. I am just po...Not that I completely agree with L-N. I am just pointing out how the same terms are used for divine beings and humans.Edgar Fosterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00280475259670777653noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13958708.post-14281667173505970942017-08-17T09:39:49.965-07:002017-08-17T09:39:49.965-07:00In _Lexical Semantics of the GNT (1992)_, Louw-Nid...In _Lexical Semantics of the GNT (1992)_, Louw-Nida<br />explain the linguistic basis for the approach they<br />take in their two-volume Greek lexicon based on<br />semantic domains. <br /><br />Reading through this work, one finds this interesting<br />observation by Eugene A. Nida and Johannes Louw:<br /><br />"By using the Greek term QEOS, the New Testament<br />writers were not making their deity a candidate for<br />the Graeco-Roman pantheon, nor were they merely using<br />a title of respect when they spoke of Jesus as KURIOS.<br />In fact, hundreds of believers died because they<br />called Jesus KURIOS, a title which Roman edicts had<br />reserved for the emperor" (Page 10).<br /><br />A term used of a divine being and a human, but with different significances. See 1 Cor 12:3.Edgar Fosterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00280475259670777653noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13958708.post-30184879755455840482017-08-17T09:31:28.604-07:002017-08-17T09:31:28.604-07:00Compare gibbor, used of men, Christ and God. Genes...Compare gibbor, used of men, Christ and God. Genesis 10:8-9; Deut 10:17; 1 Sam 17:51; Ps 24:8; Is 9:5-6; 10:21.Edgar Fosterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00280475259670777653noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13958708.post-28658422887658984432017-08-17T09:26:38.296-07:002017-08-17T09:26:38.296-07:00I am not going to repeat what Mariotti is saying, ...I am not going to repeat what Mariotti is saying, but like that he includes Gen 45:8 as another example of what I am saying. Same word used for God and man in numerous cases. Vowel pointings came later, but morphologically, we have the same word that refers to God and man as "Lord." In Greek, kurios refers to the Father, the Son of God, and to humans and likely to angels. I think what Mariotti writes bears out this point.Edgar Fosterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00280475259670777653noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13958708.post-75114980618606972642017-08-17T09:23:00.780-07:002017-08-17T09:23:00.780-07:00Today is a meeting day, and I have other responsib...Today is a meeting day, and I have other responsibilities. For now, just want to observe that the Masoretes introduced the vowel points during the middle ages. So, for the sake of my argument, I don't think that point is relevant. When ancient speakers used adonai/kurios, they made no distinction with the term(s) itself (same term for both parties), nor did they indicate a difference via morphology. An analogue would be the use of Lord for a human and God (and Christ) today. King would be another example.<br /><br />Secondly, the blogger discusses one verse, which was not adjusted because of God and men bearing the same title: Ps 110:1 revolves around the LORD and David Lord. Besides, in that psalm, we obviously have the Tetra in the first instance, then adon in the second. However, compare Genesis 18:12; 42:10; 44:18; 47:18; Ezra 10:3.<br /><br />Edgar Fosterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00280475259670777653noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13958708.post-59630935003046991492017-08-16T23:37:32.466-07:002017-08-16T23:37:32.466-07:00The possibilities are laid out here:-
https://cla...The possibilities are laid out here:-<br /><br />https://claudemariottini.com/2012/08/20/adonai/Duncanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14509064648619505383noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13958708.post-12901518986804276262017-08-16T23:30:16.235-07:002017-08-16T23:30:16.235-07:00Lord used for man and God. This is true but it app...Lord used for man and God. This is true but it appears that the masorete still needed a way to differentiate between the two usages.<br /><br />http://adonimessiah.blogspot.co.uk/2006/08/what-is-in-vowel-point-difference.html<br /><br />Not endorsing all of the bloggers conclusion only the masorete textual evidence and the possibility of two words instead of one.<br /><br />Duncanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14509064648619505383noreply@blogger.com