tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13958708.post669011914462346981..comments2024-03-28T00:08:14.247-07:00Comments on Foster's Theological Reflections: Some Recommended Works for the Study of GnosticismEdgar Fosterhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00280475259670777653noreply@blogger.comBlogger22125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13958708.post-14640813620506979692018-01-11T19:04:06.450-08:002018-01-11T19:04:06.450-08:00I don't blame you, Brother Keefa. To the makin...I don't blame you, Brother Keefa. To the making of books, there is no end. We have to make choices about what to read or not read--as the case may be. :)Edgar Fosterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00280475259670777653noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13958708.post-90565466702626463702018-01-11T18:54:15.179-08:002018-01-11T18:54:15.179-08:00I will read Frend, W. H. C. The Rise of Christiani...I will read Frend, W. H. C. The Rise of Christianity. Philadelphia: Fortress Press, 1984. Somebody else can read the rest(lol) I appreciate the reference <br />Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03217526481817445936noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13958708.post-19989464816904254002018-01-09T08:41:58.759-08:002018-01-09T08:41:58.759-08:00No, I believe the saying in Tertullian is genuine....No, I believe the saying in Tertullian is genuine. My only question is how much he personally knew about Hindus/Hinduism.<br /><br />The quote about Carthage might represent matters accurately, but there isn't sufficient evidence that allows us to determine its accuracy.Edgar Fosterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00280475259670777653noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13958708.post-57572944906013550252018-01-09T03:10:07.866-08:002018-01-09T03:10:07.866-08:00My point has still not changed regarding the apocr...My point has still not changed regarding the apocryphal quote as someone still went to the effort to make it regarding Carthage & it's surrounding ports as a point of trade. - there is evidence of significant historic food production in this area. Duncanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14509064648619505383noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13958708.post-8413167971156874472018-01-09T03:06:37.408-08:002018-01-09T03:06:37.408-08:00Trade is mostly concerned with desirable goods. Ch...Trade is mostly concerned with desirable goods. China did not have them in the same way as India in terms of spices.<br /><br />http://www.mccormickscienceinstitute.com/resources/history-of-spices<br /><br />China became an importer more than an exporter.<br /><br />https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sino-Roman_relations<br /><br />As for Carthage are you claiming that "We are not Indian Brahmins or Gymnosophists, who dwell in woods and exile themselves from ordinary human life." is NOT a genuine saying? Duncanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14509064648619505383noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13958708.post-42769921276455065612018-01-08T17:48:20.715-08:002018-01-08T17:48:20.715-08:00My point about Keay's paper is that he said th...My point about Keay's paper is that he said the whole story about Carthage and Commodus might be apocryphal. I'm not focusing on the renaming, but on the authenticity of the story. In any event, I don't see strong proof that cultural interaction occurred between Tertullian (since he was quoted) and Hindus. I also don't see much impact of Hinduism on Roman thought in general.<br /><br />Interesting Smithsonian article and it seems that the Chinese knew how to reach Rome, but how accessible was China for non-Asians or non-Chinese? For another perspective, see https://books.google.com/books?id=9qeBAgAAQBAJ&pg=PA68&dq=did+romans+travel+to+china&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwj6wsGk4cnYAhWp7YMKHfQsBaQQ6AEIOzAD#v=onepage&q=did%20romans%20travel%20to%20china&f=false<br /><br />Even if third-century CE China and Rome interacted (or even 2nd century CE), that is till a number of years that Chinese thought existed untapped by the Romans.Edgar Fosterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00280475259670777653noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13958708.post-73982648996492477912018-01-08T14:26:36.699-08:002018-01-08T14:26:36.699-08:00https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/how-thir...https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/how-third-century-china-saw-rome-a-land-ruled-by-minor-kings-3386550/Duncanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14509064648619505383noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13958708.post-56329525583328895882018-01-08T14:19:44.370-08:002018-01-08T14:19:44.370-08:00I remember this connection from a few years ago:-
...I remember this connection from a few years ago:-<br /><br />http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/asia/a-meeting-of-civilisations-the-mystery-of-chinas-celtic-mummies-5330366.htmlDuncanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14509064648619505383noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13958708.post-73785719880690453972018-01-08T13:56:29.881-08:002018-01-08T13:56:29.881-08:00The information I have referenced indicates brahmi...The information I have referenced indicates brahmin or hindu traders, not Roman.<br /><br />https://www.treehugger.com/green-food/2000-year-old-food-forestoasis-feeds-800-farmers-video.html<br /><br />This may be the last example of what may have been numerous in the area.Duncanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14509064648619505383noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13958708.post-60217222900049922232018-01-08T12:22:08.644-08:002018-01-08T12:22:08.644-08:00The nature of the title is irrelevant for my purpo...The nature of the title is irrelevant for my purposes. He was referring to Carthage as a point of Roman food supply no need to worry about renaming.Duncanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14509064648619505383noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13958708.post-59419901576121199802018-01-08T11:00:16.987-08:002018-01-08T11:00:16.987-08:00Even if trade occurred between Rome and Carthage, ...Even if trade occurred between Rome and Carthage, that is a long way from saying Hindu ideas were exported to Carthage in this process.Edgar Fosterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00280475259670777653noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13958708.post-83141301063819650162018-01-08T10:57:16.195-08:002018-01-08T10:57:16.195-08:00Before concludint that Carthage was involved in th...Before concludint that Carthage was involved in these trades, please see note 79 of Keay's paper. Some of this information could be apocryphal.Edgar Fosterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00280475259670777653noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13958708.post-51355650943029201102018-01-08T10:53:07.379-08:002018-01-08T10:53:07.379-08:00Absorption of ideas can be a difficult process. Fo...Absorption of ideas can be a difficult process. For example, Chinese philosophy has existed for more than 2,5000 years, but it could not spread much outside of Asia until non-Asians learned how to traverse formidable terrains belonging to Asia. Many people also have written about things with which they had light acquaintance personally. E.g., Immanuel Kant made sweeping statements about "all black people," but I wonder how many black Africans he actually met.<br /><br />As you know, Hindu thinking is diverse. Maybe some parallels exist between Hinduism and Gnosticism, but I see plenty of substantial differences between the two. <br /><br />We can be pretty certain that Gnosticism as a movement died out in the middle ages. While I'm not a fan of the Trinity doctrine, I don't believe Valentinianism greatly influenced its development. My book on Tertullian discusses Valentinianism to some extent, but I have not checked it lately for content. However, yes, I know Hermeticism and Valentianism are not the same. Did the church assimilate Gnosticism? I don't think so. It's basic claim about the evil nature of matter and the inherent value of spirit causes it to be untenable as a Judeo-Christian teaching.<br /><br />Edgar Fosterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00280475259670777653noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13958708.post-51628248591147464152018-01-08T03:45:31.503-08:002018-01-08T03:45:31.503-08:00https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=UU3XAwAAQBAJ&a...https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=UU3XAwAAQBAJ&pg=PA547&dq=%22Alexandria+Commodiana+Togata%22+carthage&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjEmqnxpMjYAhXjC8AKHd9yCMgQ6AEIODAD#v=onepage&q=%22Alexandria%20Commodiana%20Togata%22%20carthage&f=falseDuncanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14509064648619505383noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13958708.post-75618722576245162192018-01-08T03:34:25.861-08:002018-01-08T03:34:25.861-08:00The trade ties across north Africa including Carth...The trade ties across north Africa including Carthage and Alexandria.<br /><br />http://www.bollettinodiarcheologiaonline.beniculturali.it/documenti/generale/3_Keay_paper.pdfDuncanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14509064648619505383noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13958708.post-22483472467153571582018-01-08T03:21:39.714-08:002018-01-08T03:21:39.714-08:00https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=B0EnolOr0YsC&a...https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=B0EnolOr0YsC&pg=PA79&lpg=PA79&dq=alexandria+to+carthage+brahmin&source=bl&ots=Z5Zh7huL5w&sig=bc2OimKnsfoQBa9qcOZt0XLEQZA&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiQ3cuyn8jYAhVcFMAKHb2XAPsQ6AEINzAC#v=onepage&q=three%20cities&f=falseDuncanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14509064648619505383noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13958708.post-80344177279198673442018-01-08T03:02:55.372-08:002018-01-08T03:02:55.372-08:00I am not tying them personally to anyone. From the...I am not tying them personally to anyone. From the first century they were around & if culture had a fascination with them, then the ideas would have been adsorbed therefore they were mentioned buy Tertullian for comparison.<br /><br />Brahmins went to Rome itself in the first century - Pagels also notes this.<br /><br />I am pointing out that some of the later Gnostic doctrine could have included Hindu thinking.<br /><br />As I understand the rise of trinitarianism in the late forth century, that many of the eastern churches attributed this to valentinian tampering so it might be that Gnosticism did not die out but was actually assimilated. This though is not to be confused with Hermeticism with is a mixture of Jewish & Egyptian thinking.Duncanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14509064648619505383noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13958708.post-61491245663760840832018-01-07T16:59:09.730-08:002018-01-07T16:59:09.730-08:00OLne problem with tracking interaction of cultures...OLne problem with tracking interaction of cultures is understanding how it possibly occurred. Tertullian was in Carthage (North Africa), a province of Rome. His dates are circa 160-220/240 CE. How would he have instigated personal contact with Brahmins or gymnosophists? Even tying Origen personally to these thinkers is problematic.Edgar Fosterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00280475259670777653noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13958708.post-49109946124518141352018-01-07T16:56:46.085-08:002018-01-07T16:56:46.085-08:00Thanks, Duncan. I still think there was a great ch...Thanks, Duncan. I still think there was a great chasm between the early church and Gnosticism. The major Fathers/leaders of the church all waged ceaseless warfare (spiritually) against Gnosticism until its demise. In this instance, I think they were right to eschew Gnosticism.Edgar Fosterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00280475259670777653noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13958708.post-6168531376608642972018-01-07T13:56:30.658-08:002018-01-07T13:56:30.658-08:00https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=gviEAgAAQBAJ&a...https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=gviEAgAAQBAJ&pg=PA137&lpg=PA137&dq=they+drank+no+wine+not+ate+any+animal+food+clement&source=bl&ots=5z2Yzvpp-M&sig=SBdqnED19WldtM_sGPzNmZ7GbsQ&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwivmZXH6sbYAhUpK8AKHZ0BASMQ6AEIPTAF#v=onepage&q&f=falseDuncanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14509064648619505383noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13958708.post-30283668430953322122018-01-07T03:28:50.757-08:002018-01-07T03:28:50.757-08:00https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=8CVviRghVtIC&a...https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=8CVviRghVtIC&pg=PA458&lpg=PA458&dq=first+century+brahmins+in+rome&source=bl&ots=lWz5MGu6xV&sig=VOfblv-YFrAZaJ_nh-CsCVPna88&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiMtZuq38XYAhVpI8AKHQ7qCvcQ6AEIVzAG#v=onepage&q=first%20century%20brahmins%20in%20rome&f=falseDuncanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14509064648619505383noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13958708.post-37721687016527360682018-01-07T03:24:30.905-08:002018-01-07T03:24:30.905-08:00https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=5Rx0oruxQg0C&a...https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=5Rx0oruxQg0C&pg=PA4&lpg=PA4&dq=The+Economic+and+Social+Origins+of+Gnosticism&source=bl&ots=7a1gEeJagg&sig=v8YaQyZIM3wVdq8psVANvHz-kLk&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjGgLas3cXYAhXjBcAKHZs6DvE4ChDoAQguMAU#v=onepage&q=The%20Economic%20and%20Social%20Origins%20of%20Gnosticism&f=falseDuncanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14509064648619505383noreply@blogger.com