tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13958708.post6988413050215512441..comments2024-03-29T07:00:09.641-07:00Comments on Foster's Theological Reflections: LALEI (Hebrews 11:4)Edgar Fosterhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00280475259670777653noreply@blogger.comBlogger42125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13958708.post-22492327107344569702016-10-13T14:00:35.932-07:002016-10-13T14:00:35.932-07:00https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&source=web&a...https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=http://www.marknanos.com/polytheist-corinth-1-15-08.pdf&ved=0ahUKEwis3tX-1NjPAhUlKMAKHbwbBgEQFggrMAU&usg=AFQjCNHJsObcvtsY0Fe3-Sq9lIB5dvd5Zg&sig2=eZRLLYKqnchVfltoZ5ok3QDuncanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14509064648619505383noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13958708.post-59402460789724109422016-10-13T13:52:01.850-07:002016-10-13T13:52:01.850-07:00I'm not denying that Jews lived in Corinthi or...I'm not denying that Jews lived in Corinthi or had communities there. Nevertheless, the question is Paul's audience for 1 Corinthians. I don't think his message was chiefly or exclusively directed to Jews in Corinth. Numerous remarks that he makes confirms that point.<br /><br />I'm not sure what Jesus' utterance has to do with our discussion.<br /><br />One could either buy kosher meat or decide to eat vegetables. Again, I never claimed that kosher meat was unavailable in Corinth.<br /><br />One recent commentary on 2 Corinthians states:<br /><br />According to Strabo, Caesar colonized the city with persons belonging predominately to the “freedman class” and with some soldiers.5 As a result the city had a mixed ethnic population that included descendants from the original Greek population, as well as former slaves from everywhere in the world— Egypt, Syria, Judea, and elsewhere.<br /><br />Garland, David. 2 Corinthians: An Exegetical and Theological Exposition of Holy Scripture (The New American Commentary Book 29) (Kindle Location 378). B&H Publishing Group. Kindle Edition. <br /><br />Additionally, Corinth was evidently more Roman than Jewish although it must be understood within its Hellenistic context. The commentary adds:<br /><br />Because it was a Roman colony, Corinth was posh. Stansbury observes, "The city's position in relation to the sea made it comparable to an advantageously located island. Its attachment to the mainland made it viable as an administrative center."7<br /><br />Garland, David. 2 Corinthians: An Exegetical and Theological Exposition of Holy Scripture (The New American Commentary Book 29) (Kindle Locations 383-385). B&H Publishing Group. Kindle Edition. <br /><br />Garland, David. 2 Corinthians: An Exegetical and Theological Exposition of Holy Scripture (The New American Commentary Book 29) (Kindle Locations 375-378). B&H Publishing Group. Kindle Edition. <br /><br />Edgar Fosterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00280475259670777653noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13958708.post-65520310791868196152016-10-13T12:56:22.219-07:002016-10-13T12:56:22.219-07:00https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=y22vAwAAQBAJ&a...https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=y22vAwAAQBAJ&pg=PA154&lpg=PA154&dq=jewish+market+in+corinth&source=bl&ots=JgEYxEMhrB&sig=k2sSJLDtraqyFyZlfwlw2c4vrVo&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiqxMzaxtjPAhWIPBQKHRkNACcQ6AEIVDAI#v=onepage&q=jewish%20market%20in%20corinth&f=falseDuncanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14509064648619505383noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13958708.post-57909242020799194872016-10-13T12:22:30.386-07:002016-10-13T12:22:30.386-07:00http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/4661-co...http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/4661-corinthDuncanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14509064648619505383noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13958708.post-23796537671110183762016-10-13T12:19:54.623-07:002016-10-13T12:19:54.623-07:00One also has to look at Jesus example of healing a...One also has to look at Jesus example of healing ailments stating "your sins are forgiven". Duncanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14509064648619505383noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13958708.post-71449539098901529352016-10-13T11:12:58.122-07:002016-10-13T11:12:58.122-07:00http://nutritionfacts.org/video/chronic-headaches-...http://nutritionfacts.org/video/chronic-headaches-and-pork-tapeworms/<br /><br />http://nutritionfacts.org/video/the-role-of-bovine-leukemia-virus-in-breast-cancer/<br /><br />http://nutritionfacts.org/video/avoiding-chicken-to-avoid-bladder-infections/<br /><br />http://nutritionfacts.org/video/epic-findings-on-lymphoma/Duncanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14509064648619505383noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13958708.post-80219502676903713172016-10-13T10:45:12.701-07:002016-10-13T10:45:12.701-07:00Sow where did the Jews at the synagog get their me...Sow where did the Jews at the synagog get their meat from?Duncanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14509064648619505383noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13958708.post-37330267940263942522016-10-13T10:42:00.975-07:002016-10-13T10:42:00.975-07:00https://www.archaeological.org/fieldwork/afob/1773...https://www.archaeological.org/fieldwork/afob/17731Duncanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14509064648619505383noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13958708.post-31883693795113602692016-10-13T09:11:31.270-07:002016-10-13T09:11:31.270-07:00Evidence has been found for many markets. But the ...Evidence has been found for many markets. But the markets I know about were Greek ones or thrived in a Hellenistic setting..Edgar Fosterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00280475259670777653noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13958708.post-40766777090088637932016-10-13T09:07:20.967-07:002016-10-13T09:07:20.967-07:00 Where is the evidence for widespread Jewish marke... Where is the evidence for widespread Jewish markets in the Greek city of Corinth? - we do not need any and we only need one market - it is the sellers that are of importance.Duncanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14509064648619505383noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13958708.post-70523796088383212672016-10-13T08:46:44.169-07:002016-10-13T08:46:44.169-07:00For more on the meat market, of which archaeologic...For more on the meat market, of which archaeological evidence has been found, see http://www.tyndalehouse.com/tynbul/library/TynBull_1992_43_2_09_Gill_MeatMarket_1Cor10.pdf<br />Edgar Fosterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00280475259670777653noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13958708.post-41254434135828603572016-10-13T08:12:13.220-07:002016-10-13T08:12:13.220-07:00Paul's vision? Which one? As for Clement, it&#...Paul's vision? Which one? As for Clement, it's one comment among others that the article makes. Yet I believe we cannot simply ignore what the pre/post Nicenes wrote. They got many things wrong, but not everything. Besides, it's not only Clement who sheds light on 1 Cor. 10:25. Read Chrysostom too (his homilies on Corinthians).<br /><br />I hate to say it, but a healthy does of skepticism doesn't hurt sometimes. :)<br /><br />Personally, I love bacon, but hardly ever consume it because of the sodium levels in bacon. On the other hand, I wouldn't compare having a piece or two of bacon to smoking. And it's hard for me to see why Jehovah is going to adversely judge someone for eating some bacon every once in a while. <br /><br />"Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ" (Colossians 2:16-17 NIV).<br /><br />Edgar Fosterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00280475259670777653noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13958708.post-82206467769894670992016-10-13T08:03:06.656-07:002016-10-13T08:03:06.656-07:00Corinth (as you know) was a 1st century Greek city...Corinth (as you know) was a 1st century Greek city. So why limit his counsel to Jews/proselytes? Where is the evidence for widespread Jewish markets in the Greek city of Corinth? Additionally, the apostle's concern in 1 Cor. 10:25 appears to be whether the meat has been sacrificed to idols, not whether the meat has been bled properly or at all. Of course, he obviously knew about the Acts 15:29 injunction, but I don't believe his counsel is primarily or exclusively being given to Jews/Jewish proselytes.<br /><br />Torah is law or includes the law. The term is ambiguous, but it certainly encompasses law. Where we may differ is that I believe the law/Torah is holy, good, and righteous. We also can benefit from the principles of law/Torah. However, Christians are not bound by the law/Torah. It may not be the wisest decision to eat the fat of animals, and we might have to take local custom for handling meat into consideration, but if my brother/sister wants to consume fat--more power to them from a divine legal standpoint. We should not be arguing over diets or judging others based on diets they choose.<br /><br />Torah includes law, and the oral Torah was never inspired anyway. The Jews were obligated to keep Torah; Christians have no such obligation.Edgar Fosterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00280475259670777653noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13958708.post-25857048785937941082016-10-13T03:27:29.389-07:002016-10-13T03:27:29.389-07:00Of course there is nothing here to exclude the iss...Of course there is nothing here to exclude the issue of new animals in the diet and which ones were deemed clean or unclean in the Corinthian region which could have been a controversy but understanding the principles of Torah and observation should have solved this quite easily.Duncanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14509064648619505383noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13958708.post-40016020485887092352016-10-13T03:08:32.112-07:002016-10-13T03:08:32.112-07:00Does Paul's vision have anything to do with li...Does Paul's vision have anything to do with literal foodstuff's?<br /><br />How later Christians interpret this is not at issue since many things get muddled but the outcomes remain the same.<br /><br />Clement's parents seem to have been wealthy pagans of some social standing. So how do you think he is going to interpret if given the latitude - it's human nature. As the experts in the nutrition field state - a diet book is always going to sell well if it say its ok to eat bacon.<br /><br />https://www.google.co.uk/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&ion=1&espv=2&ie=UTF-8#q=bacon+danger+smoking<br /><br />"it not as bad as actually smoking" - I suppose that makes it ok then :)Duncanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14509064648619505383noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13958708.post-9849409729118630122016-10-13T02:57:57.859-07:002016-10-13T02:57:57.859-07:00I think you are missing the main thrust of the arg...I think you are missing the main thrust of the arguments - Where is the evidence of pagan meat markets that bled ANY meat properly. How much of it would be called "bush meat" today. How much strangled or speared and then cut up. No Labels to tell you what is good and what is not. The only way the account can work in a diaspora Jewish community & it proselytes is that we are talking about a Jewish market. How else could he make a blanket statement like that? <br /><br />Your comments were clearly to preempt this reply but I do not see how it can possibly work. The remainder of your comments are arguing by omission which does not preclude something so embedded in the culture being assumed.<br /><br />If we are talking about Torah then we are not talking about Law (Jesus demonstrates this repeatedly - and later references could well be alluding to the oral Torah as supported by the pharisees - like the washing of hands method), there is a significant difference.<br /><br />If someones life depended on eating bad meat how would Jehovah judge them?<br /><br />I sure he would not but they would still be harmed by the action.<br /><br />Bad meats vary from country to country but the outcomes of eating them in this day and age are still the same, no matter how clever we think we have become.<br /><br />http://nutritionfacts.org/?fwp_search=pork&fwp_content_type=video<br /><br />http://nutritionfacts.org/?fwp_search=chicken&fwp_content_type=video<br /><br />If you have no choice but to eat it, then eat it but true Torah (path as oppose to leaving the path or missing the mark) tells us that it is there to benefit and guide. My main point is that the dietary guidelines are sound within a modern scientific framework (If you have to eat meat then do not eat the fat being just one point that is clear).<br /><br />The massive environmental harm of livestock manufacture is another issue related to those ruining the earth (it is proven the largest single greenhouse contributor - methane being 50 times more potent than CO2). This is not Guilt by Association when one becomes aware of the facts and we are now aware of the facts.<br /><br />http://www.un.org/apps/news/story.asp?newsID=20772#.V_9aJlQrKUk<br /><br />As already referenced the idea of sacrifice as part of Torah was already being pushed out & most of that mechanism functioned as a limiter on how much meat and what types the nation could consume (a protection of which the principles still very much apply).<br /><br />The principles of Torah cannot be overturned without consequences. As you say it is not "Law" but it never was and conscience is a factor.Duncanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14509064648619505383noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13958708.post-20555291324012856932016-10-12T14:21:14.799-07:002016-10-12T14:21:14.799-07:00See http://www.academia.edu/7457182/Chapter-length...See http://www.academia.edu/7457182/Chapter-length_commentary_on_1_Corinthians_Fortress_Press_<br /><br />Use search term "foodstuff" to see what the author writes about 1 Cor. 10:25-26.Edgar Fosterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00280475259670777653noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13958708.post-82803025207189849682016-10-12T13:48:03.924-07:002016-10-12T13:48:03.924-07:00The article referenced at the last link you sent, ...The article referenced at the last link you sent, appears to run roughshod over plenty of biblical evidence that includes Acts 10 (nowhere mentioned) and 1 Tim 4:1-5 (also not mentioned in the article). Furthermore, to insist that we're still obligated to keep levitical dietary laws seems beyond the pale. I'm sorry, but it's difficult for me to accept suggestions that Christians remain bound to dietary laws. Edgar Fosterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00280475259670777653noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13958708.post-69544992803921877222016-10-12T13:40:43.018-07:002016-10-12T13:40:43.018-07:00As I'm sure you'll agree, like other words...As I'm sure you'll agree, like other words, telos has different senses that rely on the context of utterance/writing. It can mean "goal, end, purpose, function, termination" and so forth. We have to read the term in context. As I encounter telos and what the NT states about Christ, I see good evidence for the law's termination, including its dietary laws and sacrifices.<br /><br />All of the OT texts you cite were composed while the law was still in effect. With all due respect, where is the NT evidence for limiting what meats we consume as Christians, with the exception of foods sacrificed to idols, meat that has not been properly bled or animal products that just clearly are not healthy? 1 Tim. 4:1-5 seems to clearly demonstrate that we're not limited by the meats that Israel consumed in ancient times.<br /><br /><br /><br />Edgar Fosterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00280475259670777653noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13958708.post-81730684508750344532016-10-12T13:08:57.687-07:002016-10-12T13:08:57.687-07:00https://biblethingsinbibleways.wordpress.com/2014/...https://biblethingsinbibleways.wordpress.com/2014/07/06/can-we-eat-all-meats-food-sacrificed-to-idols-and-misunderstandings-regarding-1cor-1025Duncanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14509064648619505383noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13958708.post-68532290661423121322016-10-12T12:49:34.761-07:002016-10-12T12:49:34.761-07:00I never claimed that the NT forbid the eating of m...I never claimed that the NT forbid the eating of meat but where does it sanction the eating of anything other than the accepted meat.<br /><br />Most meat eaten in Israel would have been the byproduct of sacrifice or Passover but we still need to bear in mind Isaiah 1:11, How 6:6, Hos 8:13 lxx is of particular note.Duncanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14509064648619505383noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13958708.post-50533441610946797862016-10-12T09:10:23.596-07:002016-10-12T09:10:23.596-07:00For telos compare Romans 6:22, 1 Timothy 1:5, 1 P...For telos compare Romans 6:22, 1 Timothy 1:5, 1 Peter 1:9.Duncanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14509064648619505383noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13958708.post-73088926764164021972016-10-12T08:03:08.107-07:002016-10-12T08:03:08.107-07:00Duncan,
My point is that the NT does not have die...Duncan,<br /><br />My point is that the NT does not have dietary laws or forbid the eating of meat. In 1 Cor. 8, the "things" offered to idols undoubtedly are/include meat that was sacrificed. Compare 1 Cor. 10:25:<br /><br />Πᾶν τὸ ἐν μακέλλῳ πωλούμενον ἐσθίετε μηδὲν ἀνακρίνοντες διὰ τὴν συνείδησιν·<br /><br />We also have Romans 14:21: καλὸν τὸ μὴ φαγεῖν κρέα μηδὲ πιεῖν οἶνον μηδὲ ἐν ᾧ ὁ ἀδελφός σου προσκόπτει.<br /><br />Leviticus is beautiful, but Christians are not obligated to follow the dictates of Lev. 3 & 4. Christ is the telos of Torah.<br /><br />Of course I don't believe Maccabees or Josephus are inspired, but I present them for purposes of comparison, to show that worms coming from someone's body who had been slain by the deity or his angel would naturally be taken as somehow connected to divine retribution.<br /><br /><br /><br />Edgar Fosterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00280475259670777653noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13958708.post-75253060132556691382016-10-12T06:17:20.330-07:002016-10-12T06:17:20.330-07:00http://nutritionfacts.org/video/microbiome-the-ins...http://nutritionfacts.org/video/microbiome-the-inside-story/Duncanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14509064648619505383noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13958708.post-54747247898562385512016-10-12T06:03:53.612-07:002016-10-12T06:03:53.612-07:00YLT Lev 26:16 I also do this to you, and I have ap...YLT Lev 26:16 I also do this to you, and I have appointed over you trouble, the consumption, and the burning fever, consuming eyes, and causing pain of soul; and your seed in vain ye have sowed, and your enemies have eaten it;Duncanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14509064648619505383noreply@blogger.com