tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13958708.post7021535131803184109..comments2024-03-28T22:55:23.525-07:00Comments on Foster's Theological Reflections: The Role of KAI (Young and Titrud)Edgar Fosterhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00280475259670777653noreply@blogger.comBlogger37125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13958708.post-60284767688044080092017-01-05T03:45:33.514-08:002017-01-05T03:45:33.514-08:00Just came across this mormon perspective on rhetor...Just came across this mormon perspective on rhetoric:-<br /><br />http://publications.mi.byu.edu/fullscreen/?pub=1103&index=14Duncanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14509064648619505383noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13958708.post-60575489781585631592015-05-25T12:27:39.545-07:002015-05-25T12:27:39.545-07:00This was my opinion prior to reading the respectiv...This was my opinion prior to reading the respective scholars. Its simplicity and structure are ideal for a no nonsense language of trade. Many of the surrounding texts types seem to be designed to remain unaccessible unless extensive training as a scribe is obtained (intentionally?). I think it would have started out more of a written language than a spoken one but as I said before, IMO. I will always be ready to accept evidence that indicates another option but my current opinion comes from a broad range of pointers.<br /><br />As an asside where Cline mentions drought in the period see.<br /><br />http://blog.cifor.org/26559/the-science-is-clear-forest-loss-behind-brazils-drought#.VWN12TVwZpU<br /><br />&<br /><br />http://www.eh-resources.org/wood.htmlDuncanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14509064648619505383noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13958708.post-574518545798458492015-05-25T10:16:26.511-07:002015-05-25T10:16:26.511-07:00I like Cline, and will watch the ccomplete video l...I like Cline, and will watch the ccomplete video later, but shouldn't we say that Hebrew could be a language of trade? It doesn't seem that we can be dogmatic about this issue, despite all of the speculation by scholars.Edgar Fosterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00280475259670777653noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13958708.post-24678105911227589862015-05-25T00:27:50.813-07:002015-05-25T00:27:50.813-07:00https://youtu.be/hyry8mgXiTk
Its a language of tr...https://youtu.be/hyry8mgXiTk<br /><br />Its a language of trade, therefore the actual origin is not so important IMO.Duncanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14509064648619505383noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13958708.post-36823464306421020062015-05-24T15:15:45.774-07:002015-05-24T15:15:45.774-07:00Because of personal circumstances, my blog partici...Because of personal circumstances, my blog participation will be spotty or inconsistent. But after reading a few of the links you posted, and doing research of my own, I can see how uncertain all of these suggestions are. There are scholars who believe that Hebrew developed from Egypt or previous scripts, but students of ancient Hebrew are not sure. Edgar Fosterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00280475259670777653noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13958708.post-28302120805603961642015-05-23T13:21:34.944-07:002015-05-23T13:21:34.944-07:00This may give some explanation of the period with ...This may give some explanation of the period with the largest gap & the subsequent phonecian adoption of the script.<br /><br />http://www.amazon.com/1177-B-C-Civilization-Collapsed-Turning/dp/0691140898/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1396816348&sr=8-1&keywords=eric+clineDuncanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14509064648619505383noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13958708.post-46586676809429830422015-05-22T10:43:39.102-07:002015-05-22T10:43:39.102-07:00https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=yTMzJAKowyEC&a...https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=yTMzJAKowyEC&pg=PA243&lpg=PA243&dq=proto+sinaitic+script&source=bl&ots=trw4C17dZg&sig=GD16OpeejhdpISpnEPCyczBkuK4&hl=en&sa=X&ei=lWlfVfuFI-Hd7gaj24NI&ved=0CDAQ6AEwCTgK#v=onepage&q=proto%20sinaitic%20script&f=false<br /><br />See section on unresolved issues.Duncanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14509064648619505383noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13958708.post-86763405607202713672015-05-22T09:47:43.412-07:002015-05-22T09:47:43.412-07:00An important part of this puzzle is
http://en.m.w...An important part of this puzzle is<br /><br />http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ebla<br /><br />But the analysis of the texts seem to be as delayed as the DSS was.Duncanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14509064648619505383noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13958708.post-156530505341434972015-05-22T09:40:34.339-07:002015-05-22T09:40:34.339-07:00http://members.bib-arch.org/publication.asp?PubID=...http://members.bib-arch.org/publication.asp?PubID=BSBA&Volume=36&Issue=02&ArticleID=06&Page=3&UserID=0&Duncanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14509064648619505383noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13958708.post-64405485659411562412015-05-22T09:35:52.496-07:002015-05-22T09:35:52.496-07:00https://www.library.cornell.edu/colldev/mideast/al...https://www.library.cornell.edu/colldev/mideast/alphorg.htm<br /><br />Cont.Duncanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14509064648619505383noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13958708.post-6240080129942631572015-05-22T09:32:47.511-07:002015-05-22T09:32:47.511-07:00http://www.ancient.eu/alphabet/
Cont.http://www.ancient.eu/alphabet/<br /><br />Cont.Duncanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14509064648619505383noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13958708.post-7929329207530363962015-05-22T09:11:47.645-07:002015-05-22T09:11:47.645-07:00Evidence is thin on the ground.
http://en.m.wikip...Evidence is thin on the ground.<br /><br />http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proto-Sinaitic_script<br /><br />http://www.codex99.com/typography/11.html<br /><br />http://www.amazon.com/Bible-British-Museum-Interpreting-Evidence/dp/0714111554/ref=asap_bc?ie=UTF8<br /><br />Pg 34 & 35.<br /><br />For stylisation over time. There would come a point when the general user would be disconnected from the symbolic meaning.<br /><br />Cont.Duncanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14509064648619505383noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13958708.post-45235323613176923152015-05-21T19:41:14.489-07:002015-05-21T19:41:14.489-07:00I believe that your info was saved, because I did ...I believe that your info was saved, because I did find a link in my email box concerning this subject. What evidence would you say most strongly indicates that the form of Hebrew used by Moses was potentially devloped by workers and traders dwelling in Egypt? <br /><br />Do you have particular examples to illustrate that "the slightly later script" remains pictographic, in some way? What instances of naming trees do you have in mind? <br /><br />Thanks.Edgar Fosterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00280475259670777653noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13958708.post-37941002629421739392015-05-21T12:54:37.340-07:002015-05-21T12:54:37.340-07:00The Hebrew that Moses would have used. There is ev...The Hebrew that Moses would have used. There is evidence I have already left in comments that indicate that this form originates with workmen and traders in Egypt. I can post again if required.<br /><br />So obviously Deuteronomy is of a later period and style.<br /><br />Within later books like Isaiah and the twelve I would expect more abstract usages.<br /><br />The slightly later script is still pictorgrahic in a styalised sence. Like the early to mid development of Chinese.<br /><br />Adopted root words come from external origin and there appear to show up more in the naming of types of tree, as an example. Things outside of the localised scope.Duncanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14509064648619505383noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13958708.post-15144235680458638932015-05-21T11:16:44.316-07:002015-05-21T11:16:44.316-07:00I actually was referring to how things stand now w...I actually was referring to how things stand now with the MS tradition of Hebrew and the MS tradition of Greek, and what we know if we consider the last 2000 years of MSS in both languages. However, can't we find non-pictographic script in the 12th-10th century BCE writings and following? Whether you think we're limited to pictographs for Hebrew depends on what you mean by "ancient Hebrew."Edgar Fosterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00280475259670777653noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13958708.post-43998063623423749332015-05-21T03:55:48.681-07:002015-05-21T03:55:48.681-07:00https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=xpg1xWbaycUC&a...https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=xpg1xWbaycUC&pg=PA157&lpg=PA157&dq=%22the+synchronic,+the+diachronic+and+the+historical%22&source=bl&ots=3HV8eVEH5k&sig=emhldl9Y7tZR-AVxPJP5t82G8DU&hl=en&sa=X&ei=cbJdVZjaEMTzUK37gdAN&ved=0CCoQ6AEwAw#v=snippet&q=%22the%20synchronic%2C%20the%20diachronic%20and%20the%20historical%3A%20Triangular%22%20&f=false<br /><br />An interesting Essay.Duncanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14509064648619505383noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13958708.post-91115328695250262062015-05-21T01:24:27.639-07:002015-05-21T01:24:27.639-07:00In which strata?
When it comes to ancient Hebrew ...In which strata?<br /><br />When it comes to ancient Hebrew it's seem that the pictographs are all we really have. Concrete imagery conveying a relatively small vocabulary & a fairly basic grammar.<br /><br />Comparing it's basic makeup with linear B seems plausible.Duncanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14509064648619505383noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13958708.post-84607463953586901272015-05-20T07:17:36.957-07:002015-05-20T07:17:36.957-07:00I would think that we have enough of both Hebrew a...I would think that we have enough of both Hebrew and Greek samples to test the concrete-abstract hypothesis that we've been discussing. The link that you provided, from what I read, reviews the problem with synchronic analyses, although it may cast doubt on the diachronic approach too. But it seems that Hebrew has the resources to develop and form abstract nouns and convey such ideas just like Greek does.Edgar Fosterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00280475259670777653noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13958708.post-66567791030990982422015-05-20T01:51:39.618-07:002015-05-20T01:51:39.618-07:00The real question is, how can we possibly get beyo...The real question is, how can we possibly get beyond a caricature of Hebrew with such limited data sets for most periods in its history?<br /><br />https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=DfSO_7s3K0UC&pg=PA21&lpg=PA21&dq=synchronic+linguistics+problems&source=bl&ots=n3XfMJcOzm&sig=ZR9vzrl_GmZojy2YhPUvqJbcieU&hl=en&sa=X&ei=wEVcVeGbFsvsUtaIgZgJ&ved=0CDsQ6AEwBA#v=onepage&q=synchronic%20linguistics%20problems&f=false<br /><br />Duncanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14509064648619505383noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13958708.post-84665667364988137162015-05-18T13:38:40.529-07:002015-05-18T13:38:40.529-07:00Yes I would like to see this confirmed in other so...Yes I would like to see this confirmed in other sources but my impression is that cross disciplanry studies are few and far between and this combination is currently exceptional (not reductionist enough).<br /><br />My experience is that many of these kinds of choices currently have no final decisions.Duncanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14509064648619505383noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13958708.post-25569132586975836762015-05-18T08:56:14.551-07:002015-05-18T08:56:14.551-07:00The thesis does contain interesting and possibly i...The thesis does contain interesting and possibly illuminating material in that appendix, but I would need more information from diverse sources before making a final decision. The suggestion that the LXX translators were not familiar with the land (from experience) is certainly a plausible suggestion.<br /><br />I agree that it would be good to compare classical sources. I did find some references in Lausberg, but it's just a matter of finding time to post that info.<br /><br />As Paul wrote, the Greeks inclined toward wisdom (philosophy) and the Jews looked for signs. So he indicates (like history tells us) that the cultures were quite different. But my point is that we can find a variety of literature among the Greeks, which consists of material that is not abstract. <br /><br />The link that you provided from Tal Goldfajn looks like support of Barr's ideas. I don't necessarily agree with him in all respects, but his attack on the caricature of Greek/Hebrew appears to have at least put the lid on the coffin of the caricature, even if the nails still have to be inserted and struck.Edgar Fosterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00280475259670777653noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13958708.post-69846582931002997972015-05-18T08:13:54.275-07:002015-05-18T08:13:54.275-07:00https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=mtGN7feJ1NkC&a...https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=mtGN7feJ1NkC&pg=PA10&lpg=PA10&dq=hebrew+concrete++barr&source=bl&ots=_HfOO0SC1J&sig=2wrQhnnCxKSX37_piiMFaMsAfDA&hl=en&sa=X&ei=uv5ZVcHyKpLQ7QaoyIPQBg&ved=0CC0Q6AEwAg#v=onepage&q=hebrew%20concrete%20%20barr&f=false<br /><br />Barr is just one voice among many & this dispute is far from settled.Duncanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14509064648619505383noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13958708.post-29799618621244519922015-05-18T07:26:08.525-07:002015-05-18T07:26:08.525-07:00This comes back to culture as always & it'...This comes back to culture as always & it's shows some interesting points:-<br /><br />http://etd.lsu.edu/docs/available/etd-01172008-144900/unrestricted/Thesis3.pdf<br /><br />SEE:-<br /><br />APPENDIX D: SEPTUAGINTWORD STUDY<br /><br />and this is why ancient classical sources are required for comparison.<br /><br />Also the culture of the early Torah - pastoralist vs the later books & translations of agrarians.<br /><br />Even though the Greeks adopted the phonetician script there are very significant differences in culture and thinking but the fine detail of it is beyond us, we can only pick at the edges.Duncanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14509064648619505383noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13958708.post-28180888842437052942015-05-15T22:28:14.014-07:002015-05-15T22:28:14.014-07:00Duncan,
While the google books link doesn't g...Duncan,<br /><br />While the google books link doesn't give you exact passages, it does point out that both ancient Greek and Latin have a love for merism. I can produce specific examples later, but I'm sure that classical Greek contains instances of merism.<br /><br />The second link briefly discusses merism as well. See page 5 of the paper.<br /><br />My primary question about Hebrew and Greek concerned the suggestion that Hebrew is mainly concrete and Greek is abstract. Barr argued extensively against this characterization. If we consider Hebrew and Greek as a whole, we might make the same conclusion. IMO, it's not that easy to demonstrate that Greek is all that different from Hebrew in terms of the properties we're considering (concrete versus abstract). Edgar Fosterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00280475259670777653noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13958708.post-15642359392497412502015-05-15T12:15:25.108-07:002015-05-15T12:15:25.108-07:00Thanks for these links although they do not really...Thanks for these links although they do not really answer my point. As can be seen in the sermon on the mount info. hendiadys is common in the Greek but it makes no such claim for merism. I am in agreement that both languages have some concrete and abstract. But the vocabulary of the languages demonstate a significant difference. NT Greek has already had a long association with Hebrew and has already adopted or blended the varying methods. <br /><br /><br />http://www.biblestudytools.com/lexicons/greek/nas/hellenistes.html<br /><br />To say that someone has adopted the western customs and language does not exclude the possibility of a good working knowledge of the mother tongue & it,s idiom and order. Just like 3 & 4th gen Hindus living in the UK today who continuously switch between the two & it is quite clear that the framing of sentences is based on the ancestral tongue.Duncanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14509064648619505383noreply@blogger.com