tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13958708.post7376614357790949290..comments2024-03-28T22:55:23.525-07:00Comments on Foster's Theological Reflections: Some Commentaries on Daniel 12:1 (Michael the Archangel)Edgar Fosterhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00280475259670777653noreply@blogger.comBlogger36125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13958708.post-58653791306428020932016-02-01T04:09:53.385-08:002016-02-01T04:09:53.385-08:00Some comments on Ebalite:-
http://wilfred.endeavo...Some comments on Ebalite:-<br /><br />http://wilfred.endeavourmagazine.org/ebla-facts-and-fictions/<br /><br />How tall was goliath ?:-<br /><br />http://wilfred.endeavourmagazine.org/1-2-samue1-discoveries-in-the-judaean-desert-xvii/Duncanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14509064648619505383noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13958708.post-25637564689129746462016-02-01T04:08:00.558-08:002016-02-01T04:08:00.558-08:00I know that this is in effect an argument from sil...I know that this is in effect an argument from silence at the moment. Ebla between ca. 2500 BC and the destruction of the city ca. 2250 BC may yield "who is like El" & "who is like yah".<br /><br />We also have other record that are very difficult to date involving "who is like" a given deity.<br /><br />In the Seventeenth Chapter of the Book of the Dead, Ra takes on the form of a cat named simply "Mau" (cat) in order to kill the serpent Apep. The text reads;<br /><br />"I am the cat (Mau), who fought hard by the Persea tree in Annu on the night when the foes of Neb-er-tcher (a form of Osiris) were destroyed", The male cat is Ra himself and he is called "Mau" because of the words of the god Sa, who said about him, "who is like (mau) unto him?" and thus his name became "Mau" (cat). "<br /><br />So much of this is tentative at the moment but there are a few examples that are a little more solid:-<br /><br />https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=jQruCAAAQBAJ&pg=PA146&lpg=PA146&dq=%22who+is+like%22+sumerian&source=bl&ots=gOF54Cb2fb&sig=jXpPw1L0CETLm4JBTnvXNaoEKzg&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwipqt3PvdbKAhVL1xoKHZwRDngQ6AEIIjAA#v=onepage&q=%22who%20is%20like%22%20sumerian&f=false<br /><br />https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=89ILAwAAQBAJ&pg=PA19&lpg=PA19&dq=%22who+is+like%22+sumerian&source=bl&ots=_vLAEBFvWF&sig=q_zcQA3hhkPsU03ng0lkEf-VOnY&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwipqt3PvdbKAhVL1xoKHZwRDngQ6AEIJTAB#v=onepage&q=%22who%20is%20like%22%20sumerian&f=false<br />Duncanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14509064648619505383noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13958708.post-20209490791407303802016-01-31T18:13:05.877-08:002016-01-31T18:13:05.877-08:00Lange particularly has Exod 15:11 in mind for the ...Lange particularly has Exod 15:11 in mind for the "germ" idea, but I believe that the name "Michael" only first appears in Torah at Numbers 13:13. Lange is suggesting that the name only is encountered seminally in Exodus. What evidence do we have that the name existed when the Exodus occurred or at any time around that period?<br /><br />I agree that the Persian and Greek dispute precedes the Diadochi wars. Herodotus is a good source for the history of that conflict.<br /><br />Edgar Fosterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00280475259670777653noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13958708.post-14879014320537257252016-01-31T12:49:51.117-08:002016-01-31T12:49:51.117-08:00It cannot be a germ of the name since the name alr...It cannot be a germ of the name since the name already exist but it starts to carry a connotation that there is no evidence for prior.Duncanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14509064648619505383noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13958708.post-54473572448326460092016-01-31T12:46:12.581-08:002016-01-31T12:46:12.581-08:00The speculation is that this is tied to the song o...The speculation is that this is tied to the song of Moses at revelation 15:3.<br /><br />Those to whom the song is directed against is my focus or at least the geography.<br /><br />During the period of the Diadochi, Palestine changed hands between the Ptolemies and the Seleucids five times.<br /><br />The Persian Greek dispute goes back further in time and had significant effect on Palestine.Duncanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14509064648619505383noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13958708.post-41834269316823057402016-01-31T11:50:52.561-08:002016-01-31T11:50:52.561-08:00Quite a bit of research has been undertaken on the...Quite a bit of research has been undertaken on the Song of the Sea. Some works encourage us to read it against the 10 plagues backdrop. See Ex. 12:12. Lange also writes that Ex 15:11 contains a germ of the name Michael.Edgar Fosterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00280475259670777653noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13958708.post-25958656637160985562016-01-31T04:35:28.603-08:002016-01-31T04:35:28.603-08:00This is an interesting detail regarding Gabriel .
...This is an interesting detail regarding Gabriel .<br /><br />champion, chief, excel, giant, man, mighty man, one, strong man,<br />Or (shortened) gibbor {ghib-bore'}; intensive from the same as geber; powerful; by implication, warrior, tyrant -- champion, chief, X excel, giant, man, mighty (man, one), strong (man), valiant man.<br /><br />Compare to Isaiah 9:6 - El gibbor to gebber El.<br /><br />The two supposed usages of the construct state.Duncanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14509064648619505383noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13958708.post-32369836538145934532016-01-30T15:00:01.052-08:002016-01-30T15:00:01.052-08:00Sorry for my sidetrack and rant. Now back to the h...Sorry for my sidetrack and rant. Now back to the hypothesis.<br /><br />Exodus 15:11, 14.<br /><br />Who is like, defeating peoples/nation.<br /><br />Psalms 89:6,7.<br /><br />Isaiah 44:7.<br /><br />Might be Worth comparing MT & Lxx on these two.<br /><br /><br />Duncanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14509064648619505383noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13958708.post-19869551147481370422016-01-30T09:56:09.816-08:002016-01-30T09:56:09.816-08:00However, the main point I was making had nothing t...However, the main point I was making had nothing to do with translation or transliteration. I was originally addressing your question about the name Michael. <br /><br />Cheers,<br /><br />EdgarEdgar Fosterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00280475259670777653noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13958708.post-75443551570578070942016-01-30T09:54:05.976-08:002016-01-30T09:54:05.976-08:00The NET note for Isaiah 8:8 shows the importance o...The NET note for Isaiah 8:8 shows the importance of appealing to context in order to solve the difficulties with the text. I also like Goldingay's commentary on Isaiah--I think he's written more than one. There seems to be good evidence for understanding a name at 8:8 although like all matters, we can't be 100% certain.<br /><br />You're also talking about proper names, which are different from common nouns (e.g., YHWH or Jacob, etc). And Matthew saw fit to transliterate the name but then provide a translation for the nomen he transliterated. We see the Apostle John doing the same thing in his Gospel. Hence, I don't see why we have to take an either/or approach to the matter.<br /><br />You say confusion is created if we don't translate, but ambiguity is the name of the game, period. We get the angel/messenger confusion not from transliteration, primarily, but from semantics or from not taking the context into consideration. <br /><br />But nothing is going to be fully clear. We're always striving for clarity in translation and interpretation of biblical texts.<br /><br />The modern reader has numerous biblical helps: commentaries, journals, monographs, clases in Hebrew/Greek, and study bibles with multitudinous notes.<br /><br />Those who do not avail themselves of the many resources we have today will usually have to trust the translator or some scholar. At any rate, it's possible to acquire a biblical understanding that leads to salvation (per scrtipture).Edgar Fosterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00280475259670777653noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13958708.post-57547719195006332442016-01-30T09:20:37.788-08:002016-01-30T09:20:37.788-08:00But there is some glossing over of possabilities. ...But there is some glossing over of possabilities. Coming back to Isaiah 8:8 we have a translation that may or may not be a name. DSS shows as a name but the MT shows as two words.<br /><br />Articles like this make a point as to why transliteration might be used.<br /><br />http://davidbcapes.com/2013/11/13/avoiding-transliteration-in-translating-the-bible/<br /><br />But if you know what the original words are and can translate them then you should translate them otherwise artificial word devisions are created. Jesus, Joshua. Mary, Miriam. Messenger, Angel. It is a dumbing down of the text. Trying to make black and white from that which is grey. The "translation" of unknown words is where we should see the opposite. Transliteration is preferable. If you have a word in the Hebrew that is not understood then it should remain that way in the target language as the reader will assumed there is no problem or ambuguity, that no further investigation is required. Like the range of inventive "translations" of 1 kings 18:27 just as an example.<br /><br />Differences in translation philosophy are fine if you also understand the source language but there are many verses in the Hebrew text where comparing versions is fairly pointless as the newer translations pull renderings from the earlier ones when the have no solution, borrowing from wyclif of Geneva or kjv1611.<br /><br />Duncanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14509064648619505383noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13958708.post-79212526756975503842016-01-30T07:44:39.279-08:002016-01-30T07:44:39.279-08:00No disagreement about translation and transliterat...No disagreement about translation and transliteration. However, and you knew it was coming, it's common to transliterate in the process of translating, which is just differences of translation philosophy to me. Moreover, in the case of Immanuel, the Apostle Matthew elucidates the meaning of the name by translating for the reader: ὅ ἐστιν μεθερμηνευόμενον Μεθ' ἡμῶν ὁ θεός. So the modern translator does not have to translate Immanuel, but can simply transliterate in the process of translating--at least, in this and similar cases.Edgar Fosterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00280475259670777653noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13958708.post-23673479982581047532016-01-30T00:16:59.281-08:002016-01-30T00:16:59.281-08:00But transliteration is not translation. No getting...But transliteration is not translation. No getting around it.Duncanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14509064648619505383noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13958708.post-59624158600102749462016-01-29T21:01:19.502-08:002016-01-29T21:01:19.502-08:00I simply mentioned Immanuel to illustrate how Jesu...I simply mentioned Immanuel to illustrate how Jesus may have been a common name, but the GNT then provides other "names" for Christ, which really are titles instead of proper names. So "Jesus" is still a unique person although his personal name is not. Furthermore, he's Jesus the Anointed One (not like the other men who bear the same name).<br /><br />Translation philosophies also differ. I don't see how we can maintain that one way of translating is superior to another way (functional versus dynamic). The chosen approach depends on the translator's objective and target audience. "De gustibus non est disputandum."Edgar Fosterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00280475259670777653noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13958708.post-46650059317754297332016-01-29T15:29:33.442-08:002016-01-29T15:29:33.442-08:00The name Immanuel really should be translated as p...The name Immanuel really should be translated as per all the biblical names. Transliteration is not helping the understanding. With us is the mighty one (God). Reminds me of Romans 8:31.<br /><br />I think Isaiah 8:8 lxx is better example of translation.Duncanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14509064648619505383noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13958708.post-15267129735313755542016-01-29T05:37:39.181-08:002016-01-29T05:37:39.181-08:00Matthew 1:21 is the backstory. Jehovah is salvatio...Matthew 1:21 is the backstory. Jehovah is salvation being the hebraic name. Very apt for Jesus and Joshua. For many this name was label name as Josephus seems to indicate but it usage for the anointed is more specific. But this angel Michael does not have a back story and the name is just used, unless there is a more subtle back story in the text's.Duncanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14509064648619505383noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13958708.post-65627624556258970142016-01-28T20:33:27.418-08:002016-01-28T20:33:27.418-08:00I guess Michael doesn't bother me, because of ...I guess Michael doesn't bother me, because of the name given to the Lord and Savior ("Jesus"). The person was/is unique, even if his name was not since many other persons bore the name. But then, associated with the man Jesus are other "names" that speak to his unique office (Immanuel, Wonderful Counselor, etc).<br /><br />Agreed, Abraham was honored as the Father of all; however, determining a textual geneaology is difficult.Edgar Fosterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00280475259670777653noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13958708.post-3795421865780666942016-01-28T14:29:55.652-08:002016-01-28T14:29:55.652-08:00There are a few other possible connection, psalms ...There are a few other possible connection, psalms 89 6,7,19.Duncanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14509064648619505383noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13958708.post-28015429081878781352016-01-28T14:22:53.919-08:002016-01-28T14:22:53.919-08:00I do not expect to be able to make a direct connec...I do not expect to be able to make a direct connection I am mearly trying to get a handle on a possible trend of tradition. It is the name Michael that has always been problematic for me. Why that particular name when Gabriel is unique (if it is a name rather than a description). This kind of suggestions being so far outside the norm is going to be difficult to accept, if it is valid. I do not know that it is.<br /><br />As far as the abrahamic tradition goes, I think John chapter 8 gives weight to the general veneration of Abraham over other ancestors.<br /><br />I will keep chipping away at it, maybe to no avail. Time will tell.Duncanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14509064648619505383noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13958708.post-87941445784828303302016-01-28T14:02:05.426-08:002016-01-28T14:02:05.426-08:00I can see how Ps 113:5, 8 might elucidate Dan 12:1...I can see how Ps 113:5, 8 might elucidate Dan 12:1. That makes sense when looking at the English translation. Just one caution might be that literary dependence is hard to prove. How can we know that the writer of Daniel used the Psalms or Genesis as a source?Edgar Fosterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00280475259670777653noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13958708.post-59949350233266702902016-01-28T13:52:08.775-08:002016-01-28T13:52:08.775-08:00Verse 5 *miy* *kha*mokha yahweh *el*oheynu.
Verse...Verse 5 *miy* *kha*mokha yahweh *el*oheynu.<br /><br />Verse 8 lxx again, αρχόντων λαού αυτού.Duncanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14509064648619505383noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13958708.post-74237618775260820922016-01-28T07:35:11.380-08:002016-01-28T07:35:11.380-08:00There is another possible connection with psalms 1...There is another possible connection with psalms 113 particularly verses 5 & 8. The connection now that I have noticed it seems striking.Duncanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14509064648619505383noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13958708.post-16958026766495676952016-01-28T05:36:36.666-08:002016-01-28T05:36:36.666-08:00A short comment for now. Even granting what you sa...A short comment for now. Even granting what you say, it does not provide sufficient proof that Gen 23:5-6 is connected (linguistically or conceptually) to Dan 12:1. I'm still left asking why we should think one verse influenced the other. Moreover, the DSS only represent a small part of the Hebrew Bible (comparatively speaking). At least, that is the case with the extant works.Edgar Fosterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00280475259670777653noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13958708.post-80936212840392568932016-01-28T00:34:37.088-08:002016-01-28T00:34:37.088-08:00Relatively speaking we have a considerable weight ...Relatively speaking we have a considerable weight of evidence for Daniel. Q4dane fills in many gaps including a few fragments of chapter 9. There are many gaps in most of the DSS fragment but for other books with a comparable attestation, how many complete chapters are missing ?<br /><br />It is vexing to me, if not to you.<br /><br />Ylt - Michael the great head.<br /><br />Archon on lxx. Chief magistrate.<br /><br />After 487 BC, the archonships were assigned by lot to any citizen and the Polemarch's military duties were taken over by new class of generals known as stratēgoí.[citation needed] The ten stratēgoí (one per tribe) were elected, and the office of Polemarch was rotated among them on a daily basis.<br /><br />So it would seem that in ancient Greece this term followed the same function as the Hebrew for chiefs.Duncanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14509064648619505383noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13958708.post-80492227019051224112016-01-27T16:32:34.817-08:002016-01-27T16:32:34.817-08:00It doesn't bother me that none of the DSS cont...It doesn't bother me that none of the DSS contain Daniel 12 because there are plenty of gaps in that literature. Besides, is there really that much disagreement about how 12:1 is rendered?Edgar Fosterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00280475259670777653noreply@blogger.com