tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13958708.post7578998676860042085..comments2024-03-29T07:00:09.641-07:00Comments on Foster's Theological Reflections: Isaiah 9:6 (Otto Kaiser's OTL Commentary)Edgar Fosterhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00280475259670777653noreply@blogger.comBlogger27125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13958708.post-58786498370095413472016-07-17T15:18:43.731-07:002016-07-17T15:18:43.731-07:00Glad the info is helpful, Philip. I'll pass al...Glad the info is helpful, Philip. I'll pass along more as I acquire it, brother.Edgar Fosterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00280475259670777653noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13958708.post-4286799369315670822016-07-17T15:17:36.246-07:002016-07-17T15:17:36.246-07:00Duncan,
I made a distinction between classical an...Duncan,<br /><br />I made a distinction between classical and ecclesiastical Latin. So yes, way before Christianity used Latin or translated the Vetus Latina or Vulgate, classical Latin existed. We see its manifestation in Virgil, Cicero, and Quintilian (inter alii).Edgar Fosterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00280475259670777653noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13958708.post-36551797810671273852016-07-17T13:38:59.893-07:002016-07-17T13:38:59.893-07:00Came across this:-
http://www.jstor.org/stable/27...Came across this:-<br /><br />http://www.jstor.org/stable/270330?seq=1#page_scan_tab_contents<br /><br />Is this what you mean about early & Christian Latin?Duncanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14509064648619505383noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13958708.post-18502745252975270982016-07-17T13:25:14.512-07:002016-07-17T13:25:14.512-07:00http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=Zeus&...http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=Zeus&allowed_in_frame=0Duncanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14509064648619505383noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13958708.post-42675260518790006452016-07-15T15:33:07.502-07:002016-07-15T15:33:07.502-07:00http://solo.bodleian.ox.ac.uk/primo_library/libweb...http://solo.bodleian.ox.ac.uk/primo_library/libweb/action/display.do?tabs=detailsTab&ct=display&fn=search&doc=oxfaleph010235738&indx=1&recIds=oxfaleph010235738&recIdxs=0&elementId=0&renderMode=poppedOut&displayMode=full&frbrVersion=&dscnt=0&scp.scps=scope%3A%28OX%29&frbg=&tab=local&dstmp=1468621349205&srt=rank&mode=Basic&&dum=true&vl(490959669UI1)=all_items&vl(254947567UI0)=any&tb=t&vl(1UIStartWith0)=contains&vl(freeText0)=Roger%20gryson%20Esaias&vid=OXVU1<br /><br />I may be able to get access here but it does state that notes are in French. I am only at high school level French but it may not pose a problem.<br /><br />I will contact them next week. Easier for me than the British library. Getting into central London on time for an appointment is extremely problematic unless I go for the whole day.Duncanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14509064648619505383noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13958708.post-72958463504765539432016-07-15T13:21:00.937-07:002016-07-15T13:21:00.937-07:00Edgar;
I appreciate what you say about the link, s...Edgar;<br />I appreciate what you say about the link, still they are decent info on what is out there. Keep it coming and I will keep learning.<br />Thanks <br />YB <br />Philip Philip Fletcherhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06423325210695384048noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13958708.post-63671474475789699122016-07-14T19:43:33.786-07:002016-07-14T19:43:33.786-07:00Some of these works are prohibitively expensive fo...Some of these works are prohibitively expensive for me too. Another option is to use a university library, the British Library or use interlibrary loan. Even then, some works are still out of reach.Edgar Fosterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00280475259670777653noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13958708.post-17981807494595745122016-07-14T13:34:49.233-07:002016-07-14T13:34:49.233-07:00Just came across:-
http://www.vetus-latina.de/edi...Just came across:-<br /><br />http://www.vetus-latina.de/edition_vetus_latina/vetus_latina_band.html?band=121<br /><br />Probably still out of my reach.Duncanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14509064648619505383noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13958708.post-26890174909198221932016-07-14T12:58:37.332-07:002016-07-14T12:58:37.332-07:00Someone else might be aware of an online source fo...Someone else might be aware of an online source for Gryson. I tried to find online access to the work, but could not.Edgar Fosterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00280475259670777653noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13958708.post-62850410058179124742016-07-14T09:14:26.946-07:002016-07-14T09:14:26.946-07:00Edgar, the cheapest I can find an OLD is a used on...Edgar, the cheapest I can find an OLD is a used one @ £160, so will have to weigh up my need for it. It will probably have to stay on my wish list for the moment.<br /><br />http://www.vetuslatina.org/<br /><br />Esaias 7:14 – 10:19. Roger Gryson. 1989<br /><br />Is there anywhere on line that has this to view?Duncanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14509064648619505383noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13958708.post-90973941935190341022016-07-14T07:55:46.497-07:002016-07-14T07:55:46.497-07:00Duncan, the Deus question is a complex one to me s...Duncan, the Deus question is a complex one to me since context is always important for determining the meaning of a word. But I think Lewis-Short is a good resource for studying such Latin words. Please see the link above. And if you can get hold of an OLD, that would be helpful too. There's also a substantial difference between classical and ecclesiastical Latin, and the latter morphs in the Middle Ages. I'm almost certain that Jerome (translator of the Vulgate) understood Deus to mean "God/god" or he thought it referred to the Supremem Being in a number of contexts. Lastly, I've had some exposure to Deus in Lactantius, who lived during the 4th century. Of course, the Vulgate was published ca. 405 CE, but I don't see much of a difference in understading the meaning of Deus when one compares Lactantius with a figure like Jerome. Again, we're talking about mchurch Latin at this point and not classical Latin.Edgar Fosterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00280475259670777653noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13958708.post-24228335319525167042016-07-14T03:32:58.224-07:002016-07-14T03:32:58.224-07:00द्यौष्पितृ / Dyauṣpitṛ
Possibly related to
http:...द्यौष्पितृ / Dyauṣpitṛ<br /><br />Possibly related to<br /><br />http://oracc.museum.upenn.edu/amgg/listofdeities/an/<br /><br />As far as Deus being common in usage. I agree, but there was a definite shift in understanding of what apotheosis meant in Rome over time. Shifting from the political to the religious, from the living to the deceased. This is why I wonder about how Deus was used at the point of inception of the vulgate? Duncanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14509064648619505383noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13958708.post-70170074456705065272016-07-14T02:10:17.371-07:002016-07-14T02:10:17.371-07:00The "El in the Ugaritic texts" looks ver...The "El in the Ugaritic texts" looks very interesting. It does indicate that Baal and El could be two distinct families on pg 48.<br /><br />http://etcsl.orinst.ox.ac.uk/#<br /><br />This could just be different roles like Enki (land) & Enlil (wind).<br /><br />I do not know if urgatic carries the same poetic structure as Hebrew but I suppose it could be talking about just one group but functionally in the period there seems to be a significant difference in roles between a baal (land & agriculture) & an El (civis).<br /><br />https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=ns4UAAAAIAAJ&pg=PA32&dq=el+and+ugarit&hl=en&sa=X&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q=with%20horns&f=false<br /><br />http://www.historyinsidepictures.com/siteimages/G45.jpg<br /><br />Note the Egyptian style throne.<br /><br />I can see parallels here in relation to Moses having horns as an El (leader of people).<br />Duncanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14509064648619505383noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13958708.post-5842073710342650342016-07-13T19:08:52.860-07:002016-07-13T19:08:52.860-07:00The major work for consulting Latin words is OLD (...The major work for consulting Latin words is OLD (Oxford Latin Dictionary). But it's a very expensive work, so I'm glad we have one in our university library. <br /><br />On the subject of Baal and El, I believe this work needs to be read: https://books.google.com/books?id=ns4UAAAAIAAJ&pg=PA32&dq=el+and+ugarit&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjD35SH7_HNAhWGQCYKHdY4D_cQ6AEIJTAB#v=snippet&q=baal&f=falseEdgar Fosterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00280475259670777653noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13958708.post-31937753221581762952016-07-13T19:02:53.122-07:002016-07-13T19:02:53.122-07:00Duncan,
Deus was a common word used by the Romans...Duncan,<br /><br />Deus was a common word used by the Romans even prior to Christianity's inception. You likely remember the Vedic deity Dyaus-pitar, which can mean "Shining Father," and is cognate with Zeus and Jupiter (Greek and Roman names for the same deity).<br /><br />Michael Molloy, and many other sources bring out the connection. But one good online source for Latin etymology and lexical matters is Lewis and Short. See http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0059%3Aentry%3DdeusEdgar Fosterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00280475259670777653noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13958708.post-73755987202765310872016-07-13T08:12:19.278-07:002016-07-13T08:12:19.278-07:00http://www.bible-researcher.com/neb.html
Note tha...http://www.bible-researcher.com/neb.html<br /><br />Note that the alternative rendering is in keeping as a contrast with chapter 9 verses 1 & 2.Duncanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14509064648619505383noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13958708.post-54047979971858042782016-07-13T07:28:39.782-07:002016-07-13T07:28:39.782-07:00From NET footnote for AVI AD:-
According to Egypt...From NET footnote for AVI AD:-<br /><br />According to Egyptian propaganda, the Hittites described Rameses II as follows: “No man is he who is among us, It is Seth great-of-strength, Baal in person; Not deeds of man are these his doings, They are of one who is unique” (See Miriam Lichtheim, Ancient Egyptian Literature, 2:67).<br /><br />But unfortunately this assumes still that EL = GOD and that BAAL = EL.Duncanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14509064648619505383noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13958708.post-25862869266493826822016-07-13T07:00:24.777-07:002016-07-13T07:00:24.777-07:00Edgar,
I note that Deus is used in the Vulgate. B...Edgar,<br /><br />I note that Deus is used in the Vulgate. But what is the diachronic understanding of its usages in the second and third centuries?<br /><br />It is speculated that dies (day) comes from the same root (PIE) referring to a shinning one (sun).Duncanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14509064648619505383noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13958708.post-78271125498083780842016-07-13T06:45:20.466-07:002016-07-13T06:45:20.466-07:00Dunca: The understanding given at "Trinity De...Dunca: The understanding given at "Trinity Delusion" seems to be similar/the same as the exegesis provided by Goldingay, in line with the traditional Jewish exegetical tradition. I'll also check out NEB. Thanks, EdgarEdgar Fosterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00280475259670777653noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13958708.post-90378404649061123902016-07-13T06:42:45.192-07:002016-07-13T06:42:45.192-07:00Philip: As with all links I provide, I by no means...Philip: As with all links I provide, I by no means endorse everything the writer says. However, I found some of the comments to be helpful for understanding how some Jews have understood Isa. 9:6. Edgar Fosterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00280475259670777653noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13958708.post-84737057386013650982016-07-13T01:43:25.549-07:002016-07-13T01:43:25.549-07:00http://www.angelfire.com/space/thegospeltruth/trin...http://www.angelfire.com/space/thegospeltruth/trinity/verses/Is9_6EL.html<br /><br />Of particular note is the translation of EL GIBBOR.<br /><br />The NEB does give an interesting alternative translation to AVI AD. Duncanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14509064648619505383noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13958708.post-28257304471024966382016-07-11T15:49:24.853-07:002016-07-11T15:49:24.853-07:00Yeah this is good information. When I get time wil...Yeah this is good information. When I get time will look into it more fully. I think some of the experts miss it on Eternal Father. If Adam had not sin he would always be our father eternally, since Jesus became the last Adam as Paul stated in 1 Cor. 15, than he is our Eternal Father in that way. Always. As the last Adam. Philip Fletcherhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06423325210695384048noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13958708.post-20153899613663359392016-07-11T10:34:07.139-07:002016-07-11T10:34:07.139-07:00Philip, see http://thejewishhome.org/counter/Isa9_...Philip, see http://thejewishhome.org/counter/Isa9_56.pdf<br /><br />It's an exegetical discussion of Isa. 9:6.Edgar Fosterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00280475259670777653noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13958708.post-40199761894573132302016-07-06T14:03:06.762-07:002016-07-06T14:03:06.762-07:00Philip, there is plenty of material on the subject...Philip, there is plenty of material on the subject, but here's something from John Goldingay for now. All of the foregoing material is taken from his commentary.<br /><br />From the New International Biblical Commentary on Isaiah by John Goldingay:<br /><br />9:6 / It is usually assumed that the name in v. 6b comprises a<br />series of asyndetic phrases (so NIV) and describes the person named.<br />The son then is the Wonderful Counselor. Christian claims that Jesus<br />fulfills the vision of v. 6b can do justice to the designation<br />Mighty God, but the difficulty comes with Everlasting Father' which<br />hardly applies to Jesus. Conversely, a reading in the light of<br />eighth-century B.C. Middle Eastern thinking can perhaps do justice<br />to Everlasting Father as an extravagant OT description of a king's<br />relationship with his people, but Mighty God is unparalleled in the<br />OT in such designations. Wildberger (Isaiah 1-12, p. 405) suggests<br />it is based on Egyptian ways of speaking of the king, but even these<br />hardly parallel such an extravagant description. It is difficult to<br />know what the original hearers would have made of the words if this<br />is how Isaiah meant them. it is significant that the Jewish<br />exegetical tradition assumed that at least the first three phrases<br />referred to God, though it took them as describing God as namer<br />rather than as part of the name.<br /><br />The Hb. of the first two phrases reads literally "Wonder planner,<br />God warrior." NIV "wonderful counselor" apparently takes the first<br />phrase to mean "wonder of a planner." If that is a natural rendering<br />of the first phrase, the natural way for the prophet to expect<br />people to understand the second [maybe] is to take it to suggest "God of a<br />warrior," "God-like warrior" (rather than "warrior-like God,"<br />presupposed by NIV). The plural of the phrase rendered Mighty God<br />indeed appears in Ezek. 32:21 to mean "mighty leaders." In<br />isolation, the four terms would then be quite intelligible as<br />descriptions of a hoped-for king.<br /><br />But the recurrence of the phrase rendered "Mighty God" el gibbor in<br />10:21 with definite reference to Yahweh make it harder to accept<br />that here the phrase means "God-like warrior" or that it refers to<br />the promised king. Indeed, to say that someone is a "wonder of a<br />planner" is to call him God-like (see on 5:8-24), and Wildberger (Isaiah 1-12,<br />p. 403) argues strongly that the phrase must mean "Wonder-planner." The basis<br />for translating the second phrase "God-like warrior" then disappears. Even Father, let alone Everlasting Father, is not otherwise instanced as a title for a king.<br /><br />There is a further point. Other names such as Isaiah, Shear-jashub,<br />and Immanuel comprise statements rather than merely strings of<br />epithets. They mean "Yahweh [is] salvation," 'A remnant will<br />return," "God [is] with us." It is natural also to assume that the<br />designation of Yahweh in v. 6b is one or two statements. How to<br />construe the statements is then open to discussion, as is the case<br />with Maher-shalal-hash-baz (see Additional Note on 8:1). As the<br />middle two phrases are the ones that apply most distinctively to<br />God, we might take the four as a characteristic prophetic chiasm: 'A<br />Wonderful Counselor is the Mighty God; the Everlasting Father is a<br />Prince of Peace."Edgar Fosterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00280475259670777653noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13958708.post-77077167087872036202016-07-05T21:06:22.814-07:002016-07-05T21:06:22.814-07:00Ok the Jew were really understanding the words in ...Ok the Jew were really understanding the words in Psalms were he says "you are gods" So anyone can be consider a god. I will accept the Idea of Almighty God. i believe they missed it though. I wonder what Jews, modern that is the past century, or after the 1st century or those who lived at the time of Isaiah's writings. If for instance after the 1st century, they probably wouldn't be right anyway, they were wrong by Jesus time anyway. My thoughtsPhilip Fletcherhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06423325210695384048noreply@blogger.com