Revelation often alludes to Torah and temple, but such imagery should not be taken as an indicator that frogs or certain birds are still considered unclean by God. Otherwise, we have a conflict with the very words of Jesus himself and the apostles.
By the words of Jesus, I was referring to his statement on clean/unclean foods in Mark 7:17-19. It also occurred to me that Jews could eat meat anyway; they just had to abstain from certain kinds. But Gen. 9:3, 4 put no such restriction on Noah and his family, and now here we find the declaration of Christ in Mk 7:19.
When Genesis speaks of Noah and the animals it mentions domestic animals, but why would they have been domesticated before the flood if they did not eat them - Able sacrificed from his flock. Also how long would the domestic animals hold out after the flood if this is what they had to eat?
We are not getting a complete picture here.
The Torah of the Jews was to be practiced "in the land" so why would we expect precisely the same stipulations even for Jews elsewhere?
I'm not saying that Larry Hurtado agrees with me, but he does critique aspects of Fredriksen's of her hypothesis here: https://larryhurtado.wordpress.com/2014/11/11/pauls-persecution-of-jewish-jesus-followers-nature-causes/
I also wonder how the Letter to the Hebrews--regardless of whether the letter was written by Paul or not--contributes to the belief that first-century Christians observed elements of Jewish law.
On Mt 5:17, suggestions for the use of analusai are given at https://bible.org/seriespage/14-not-abolish-fulfill-matthew-517-20
See also http://digitalcommons.liberty.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1084&context=masters
Domestic anaimals are mentioned in the first chapter of Genesis, according to NWT (1:24-26). This rendering implies that God created some animals that were already domestic. Besides, there are domestic animals that most cultures don't eat.
After the flood, only eight people survived. The account leads us to believe that Noah and his family had sufficient fare to sustain them, plus animals would continue to reproduce.
I'm not saying that stipulations were the same for Jews everywhere; however, the Bible itself and recorded history convince me that Jews did not just feel obligated to observe the law while "in the land." Faithful Jews would attempt to practice the law wherever they went.
We don't know if people ate meat with the blood prior to the flood. Maybe the Nephilim did along with those who cared not one whit about pleasing Jehovah. But the Bible does not give that info.
It's a shame that Larry Hurtado does not give any background as to the general things that people would get flogged for in the first century or how common this might be.
A question here is - did Jesus uphold the dietary laws & if so, how?
"Domestic" animals see LXX Gen 1:24. Abel sacrifices a "Sheep". Bear in mind that a number of domestic animals are not four footed. Also domestic sheep as we understand them today would die out without human interventions.
"there are domestic animals that most cultures don't eat" - but in most cases some other culture does - its a numbers game along with cultural developments over time. I have never heard of any one in the UK eating guinea-pig but apparently they cannot get enough of them in Cuba.
"Faithful Jews would attempt to practice the law wherever they went." - what about the elephantine community?
How would a community "attempt" to practice the law - by adaptation and that is my main point.
Duncan, that was a question that just came to my mind since we've been discussing foods and diet. I would submit that Hebrews militates against Christians keeping the law. The whole epistle argues that the way of Christ is superior to the old dispensation: one sacrifice for all time, etc.
But they did eat from the flock on specific occasions, that was my point about the meat and the fat.
This may give you some idea of what I mean directly after the flood, when food is scarce animals do not reproduce very quickly. Time would pass and if Noah and family were only eating meat during that initial period I can see why Jehovah would call it food.
Just as an example, it takes an apple tree approximately 10 years of growth before it will produce fruit, but the apple tree will not grow in the first instance until the soil has reached the correct condition through being processed by what are usually called weeds and nitrogen fixing leguminous plants or something equivalent.
Rev 16:13 & 18:2 note the terminology maintained.
ReplyDeleteRevelation often alludes to Torah and temple, but such imagery should not be taken as an indicator that frogs or certain birds are still considered unclean by God. Otherwise, we have a conflict with the very words of Jesus himself and the apostles.
ReplyDeleteWords of Jesus ?
ReplyDeletehttp://www.bu.edu/religion/files/2015/12/PF-Law-free-Paul-JBL-134-2015-637-501.pdf
ReplyDeletehttps://www.amazon.co.uk/Paul-Within-Judaism-Restoring-First-Century/dp/1451470037/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1477927553&sr=1-1&keywords=9781451470031
ReplyDeleteBy the words of Jesus, I was referring to his statement on clean/unclean foods in Mark 7:17-19. It also occurred to me that Jews could eat meat anyway; they just had to abstain from certain kinds. But Gen. 9:3, 4 put no such restriction on Noah and his family, and now here we find the declaration of Christ in Mk 7:19.
ReplyDeleteMatthew 5:17 - we usually concentrate on ουκ ηλθον καταλυσαι αλλα πληρωσαι but why even mention καταλυσαι ?
ReplyDeletehttps://books.google.co.uk/books?id=94dMAwAAQBAJ&pg=PA71&dq=jewish+new+testament+%CF%80%CE%BB%CE%B7%CF%81%CF%89%CF%83%CE%B1%CE%B9&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjJibrfuIXQAhWhKMAKHYVDAEcQ6AEILDAD#v=onepage&q=matthew%205%3A17&f=false
When Genesis speaks of Noah and the animals it mentions domestic animals, but why would they have been domesticated before the flood if they did not eat them - Able sacrificed from his flock. Also how long would the domestic animals hold out after the flood if this is what they had to eat?
ReplyDeleteWe are not getting a complete picture here.
The Torah of the Jews was to be practiced "in the land" so why would we expect precisely the same stipulations even for Jews elsewhere?
So did people eat meat with the blood prior to the flood?
ReplyDeletehttp://www.marknanos.com/myth-lawfree-12-3-08.pdf
ReplyDeleteI'm not saying that Larry Hurtado agrees with me, but he does critique aspects of Fredriksen's of her hypothesis here: https://larryhurtado.wordpress.com/2014/11/11/pauls-persecution-of-jewish-jesus-followers-nature-causes/
ReplyDeleteI also wonder how the Letter to the Hebrews--regardless of whether the letter was written by Paul or not--contributes to the belief that first-century Christians observed elements of Jewish law.
On Mt 5:17, suggestions for the use of analusai are given at https://bible.org/seriespage/14-not-abolish-fulfill-matthew-517-20
See also http://digitalcommons.liberty.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1084&context=masters
Domestic anaimals are mentioned in the first chapter of Genesis, according to NWT (1:24-26). This rendering implies that God created some animals that were already domestic. Besides, there are domestic animals that most cultures don't eat.
After the flood, only eight people survived. The account leads us to believe that Noah and his family had sufficient fare to sustain them, plus animals would continue to reproduce.
I'm not saying that stipulations were the same for Jews everywhere; however, the Bible itself and recorded history convince me that Jews did not just feel obligated to observe the law while "in the land." Faithful Jews would attempt to practice the law wherever they went.
We don't know if people ate meat with the blood prior to the flood. Maybe the Nephilim did along with those who cared not one whit about pleasing Jehovah. But the Bible does not give that info.
Encyclopedia article about domestic animals, wild animals and Israel's diet: https://www.studylight.org/dictionaries/hbd/view.cgi?n=340
ReplyDeleteIt's a shame that Larry Hurtado does not give any background as to the general things that people would get flogged for in the first century or how common this might be.
ReplyDeletehttp://dspace.nwu.ac.za/bitstream/handle/10394/15611/Trout_BM_2014.pdf;sequence=1
A question here is - did Jesus uphold the dietary laws & if so, how?
"Domestic" animals see LXX Gen 1:24. Abel sacrifices a "Sheep". Bear in mind that a number of domestic animals are not four footed. Also domestic sheep as we understand them today would die out without human interventions.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_domesticated_animals
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ovis
"there are domestic animals that most cultures don't eat" - but in most cases some other culture does - its a numbers game along with cultural developments over time. I have never heard of any one in the UK eating guinea-pig but apparently they cannot get enough of them in Cuba.
"Faithful Jews would attempt to practice the law wherever they went." - what about the elephantine community?
How would a community "attempt" to practice the law - by adaptation and that is my main point.
"Letter to the Hebrews" - sorry I must of mist this, where is it referred to?
ReplyDeleteDuncan, that was a question that just came to my mind since we've been discussing foods and diet. I would submit that Hebrews militates against Christians keeping the law. The whole epistle argues that the way of Christ is superior to the old dispensation: one sacrifice for all time, etc.
ReplyDeleteEdgar,
ReplyDeleteI heartily agree that Hebrews 10:5,8 is in accord with Mat 9:13,10:7, Psalms 40:6 51:17.
Here's an interesting little article:-
https://gotquestions.org/Israelites-eat-flocks.html
But they did eat from the flock on specific occasions, that was my point about the meat and the fat.
This may give you some idea of what I mean directly after the flood, when food is scarce animals do not reproduce very quickly. Time would pass and if Noah and family were only eating meat during that initial period I can see why Jehovah would call it food.
http://permaculture-and-sanity.com/pcarticles/how-land-recovers-from-fire.php
http://www.naturalsequencefarming.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?t=836
Just as an example, it takes an apple tree approximately 10 years of growth before it will produce fruit, but the apple tree will not grow in the first instance until the soil has reached the correct condition through being processed by what are usually called weeds and nitrogen fixing leguminous plants or something equivalent.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h_-fPGcnDyE
See 53:00