Genesis 18:22 only contradicts Gen. 19:27 if the Masoretic text suggestion is accepted, but we have good reason to think the reading is fanciful. Robert Alter pans the suggestion, if memory serves me correctly, and the Targum Onkelos clearly says Abraham kept ministering/praying before YHWH. Textually, we also don't have reason to accept an emendation. So no emendation--no contradiction.
Victor P. Hamilton (The Book of Genesis 18-50, page 24)
See https://www.jstor.org/stable/43725136
Exodus 17:6 is not comparable.
ReplyDeletehttps://books.google.co.uk/books?id=591EAAAAcAAJ&pg=PP286&lpg=PP286&dq=%D7%A2%D6%B9%D7%9E%D6%B5%D6%96%D7%93+%D7%9C%D6%B4%D7%A4%D6%B0%D7%A0%D6%B5%D6%A5%D7%99+stood+before&source=bl&ots=3qCCf6xqFY&sig=ACfU3U02ttjzYRnT3snQJsBXaWneLLPAJQ&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwioscPmwK3mAhVjnVwKHVgcAGMQ6AEwAnoECAgQAQ#v=onepage&q=%D7%A2%D6%B9%D7%9E%D6%B5%D6%96%D7%93%20%D7%9C%D6%B4%D7%A4%D6%B0%D7%A0%D6%B5%D6%A5%D7%99%20stood%20before&f=false
ReplyDeletePg 601 second column (a).
I had done a study on this some time ago it normally indicates the subordinate "standing before" the authority. It not normally a physical location.
I will check out the book reference, but why is Exodus 17:6 not comparable?
ReplyDeleteI think the main difference is the "I will stand" cf. Exodus 33:19 on.
ReplyDeletehttps://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Exodus+33&version=NASB
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Exodus+34&version=NASB
"descended in the cloud and stood there >>with<< him"
">>passed by in front<< of him"
So Moses actually is standing before the one passing in front.
"Another common characteristic of the corrections of the scribes is
ReplyDeletethat most of them correct merely one or two letters, principalxiy the
pronominal suffix. If the corrections had represented changes in the
text, it is hard to believe that the correctors would have limited
themselves to such small details. Moreover, for some corrections it is
improbable that the original text would indeed have read as the
Masorah claims. For example, Gen. Rab. 49.7, also included in the list
of the Masorah:
"The men went on from there to Sodom, while Abraham
remained standing before the LORD" (Gen 18:22 m and the other
witnesses). R. Simon said: "This is a correction of the scribes for
the Shekhinah was actually waiting for Abraham."
It is unlikely that the original text would have read "while the Lord
remained standing before Abraham," as claimed by the Masorah.
Even though the practice of correcting a text out of respect for a god
or gods is also known in the Hellenistic world, 4 5
and although
corrections such as these were certainly inserted into the biblical text
(see pp. 264-275), the corrections of the scribes do not necessarily prove
the existence of such a practice. It should be noted, however, that a few
of the alleged original, uncorrected readings mentioned by the Masorah
are known as variants from other sources—see Zech 2:12 mentioned
above and further"
TEXTUAL CRITICISM
OF THE HEBREW BIBLE
Emmanuel Tov - Pg 66.
Could be meaning that YHWH is completely focused on Abraham. I don't necessarily see it a subordination.
ReplyDeleteI agree Philip that standing before someone does not always indicate subordination, but there are times when it might.
ReplyDeleteSee also https://www.google.com/books/edition/Introduction_to_the_Massoretico_critical/ZYgJqQG44PUC?hl=en&gbpv=0
This book discusses the so-called "corrections of the scribes"
Note gen 18:2 - standing by him.
ReplyDeleteContext within the language of Torah :-
ReplyDeleteExo_18:13 - moses as a judge.
Deut 1:34 - joshua as the man in command.
Jos_20:6,9 - standing before the assembly for judgment.
Also
1 Kings 8:22 And Sol'o·mon began standing before the altar of Jehovah in front of all the congregation of Israel,
Note, before but also in front - the intermediate authority.
CF 1 kings 10:8.
2Ch 20:13
There may be other examples in later books but that is not my focus.
Main point here is that it is not used to indicate the blocking of someones physical walking path. This is one of the theories for the textual variant, that Abraham should no be blocking Yehovahs way. This is missing the point of what follows with the legal case being made.
Trying to look at three arriving to Abraham and two arriving at Sodom has brought about considerable interpolation. We just do not have all the detail & IMO it should be left at that.
E.A. Speiser translates Gen. 18:22, "The men left from there for Sodom, but Yahweh paused in front of Abraham."
ReplyDeleteHe explains:
"Yahweh paused in front of Abraham. So the original text. But the passage is listed among the rare instances of Masoretic interference known as
Tiqqune soferim 'scribal corrections,' whereby the text was changed to
'Abraham paused before Yahweh,' for deferential reasons. The change is
already witnessed in LXX."
Brenton LXX: "And the men having departed thence, came to Sodom; and Abraam was still standing before the Lord."
The Hebrew is quite clear. The LXX is interpretation of some kind, not translation. How does the LXX treat the other instances?
ReplyDeletehttp://dssenglishbible.com/genesis%2018.htm
ReplyDeleteLater tanakh texts use "stand before" in other ways but I do not believe there are examples in Torah.
ReplyDelete[… …] to me, and a great Watcher to me as a messenger with a message of the Holy One [… … … …] he spoke with me in a vision and stood before me [… … … …] message of the Great Holy One.
ReplyDeletehttps://pages.uncc.edu/john-reeves/course-materials/rels-2104-hebrew-scripturesold-testament/translation-of-1q-genesis-apocryphon/
https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=R0WWDwAAQBAJ&pg=PT104&lpg=PT104&dq=gen+18:22+greek+english&source=bl&ots=PfX8-Js1Pe&sig=ACfU3U2_U6TNUisAfJK-qJsI2tfWgNzfeQ&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwid5cTZsbPmAhXKMMAKHeyBB5sQ6AEwC3oECAQQAQ#v=onepage&q=gen%2018%3A22%20greek%20english&f=false
ReplyDelete"Vs. 22. Westermann (1985:285) observes that “[a]ccording to tiqqune sopheriym [corrections or emendations of scribes] the succession of the subjects was originally reversed” “An ancient Hebrew scribal tradition reads “but the Lord remained standing before Abraham.” This reading is problematic because the phrase “standing before” typically indicates intercession, but the Lord would certainly not be interceding before Abraham” (The NET Bible First Edition Notes, 2006). Perhaps it was the scribal effort to avoid what may look like demeaning to Yahweh. It sounds human and perhaps culturally unacceptable for God to stand before human."
ReplyDeletehttps://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/c504/418b09377bebcc833c0eda85444b38cdfbbb.pdf
Hospitality and its Ironic Inversion in Genesis 18 & 19 - Semantic Scholar
Note that even the paper I just posted mistranslated "stood by/with" in verse two as "stood before".
ReplyDeletehttps://biblehub.com/text/genesis/18-32.htm
A different term used.
It's just not that complicated really.
The LXX has "before" in Genesis 18:2.
ReplyDeleteI'm in favor of the Abraham before YHWH reading, but Speiser contends it could be the other way around.
It easy to see Speisers bias:-
ReplyDeletehttps://books.google.co.uk/books?id=miUE84zlgHYC&pg=PA8&lpg=PA8&dq=%22Speiser%22+theology&source=bl&ots=ndC0upkcKI&sig=ACfU3U3A1IR1v02wTJMIVTnf2IoXWgkT_A&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwj4hdSL3rTmAhWbiVwKHUZBAlgQ6AEwBnoECAkQAQ#v=onepage&q=Recognise%20god%20in%20the%20group&f=false
One must look at the totality of Torah usages in Hebrew and LXX of both terms. I do not think his argument is very strong at the moment. As time permits I may look through all instances so as not to be swayed by later tradition such as https://www.sefaria.org/Targum_Jonathan_on_Genesis.18?lang=bi
https://www.torahresource.com/pdf-articles/gen18-22%25E2%2580%2593tiqqune-soferim.pdf
ReplyDeleteSeems that even some Jewish arguments do not understand how terms are used in general.
For Genesis 18:2 LXX:-
ReplyDeletehttps://books.google.co.uk/books?id=beUwAQAAMAAJ&pg=PA791&lpg=PA791&dq=genesis+%CE%B5%CE%B9%CF%83%CF%84%CE%B7%CE%BA%CE%B5%CE%B9%CF%83%CE%B1%CE%BD+%CE%B5%CF%80%CE%B1%CE%BD%CF%89+%CE%B1%CF%85%CF%84%CE%BF%CF%85&source=bl&ots=TXoIK1Fnqw&sig=ACfU3U2wHKWxg9Dn-moOLlKlAyfJ1uovHw&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwitqe2I_LnmAhVUecAKHXnLAYMQ6AEwAHoECAsQAQ#v=onepage&q=genesis%20%CE%B5%CE%B9%CF%83%CF%84%CE%B7%CE%BA%CE%B5%CE%B9%CF%83%CE%B1%CE%BD%20%CE%B5%CF%80%CE%B1%CE%BD%CF%89%20%CE%B1%CF%85%CF%84%CE%BF%CF%85&f=false
ABP translation - "three men had set upon him"
I think that Jos 23:9 MT & LXX demonstrate a correct understanding.
ReplyDeleteNo man had bested him or had authority over him.
My above reference to Deut 1:34 was incorrect.
The LXX has varying interpretations of the single phrase through the above cited verses. I think that translating one book at a time lost them the correct understanding of the phrase.
Robert Alter-Joshua 23:9
ReplyDelete"And the LORD has dispossessed before you great and mighty nations, and you—no man has stood before you till this day."
No footnotes for this verse in Alter's translation.
https://biblehub.com/lexicon/joshua/23-9.htm
ReplyDeleteNote the Panim & Panim.
see also
I have worked out my typo - it should have been Deut 11:25,26.
https://biblehub.com/lexicon/deuteronomy/11-25.htm
https://biblehub.com/lexicon/deuteronomy/11-26.htm
Note the Panim & Panim here also.
berakah & qelalah
Its usually tied up with a legal decision or case.
I think Joshua 23:12 has a bearing.
Thanks, Duncan.
ReplyDeletehttps://www.messie2vie.fr/bible/strongs/strong-hebrew-H3381-yarad.html
ReplyDeleteAlso worth noting that this has an ambiguity in Gen 18.
The three gods of Jehovah's Witnesses New World version :)
ReplyDeleteor
My Adventist friend and JW's ignorance versus the "Great family" of the Old Testament manuscripts
I have an Adventist friend who told me that there are three Jehovah Gods, one being the Father, one being the Son and the other being the Holy Spirit. He is an old man and yet he began to write a book to prove it. So, with this book, he wants to prove the Trinity doctrine and convince the witnesses to go to Adventists :)
And guess where he got these things from? From the New World translation of Jehovah's Witnesses, made a gift by some Witnesses.
Genesis 18: "1Afterward, Jehovah appeared to him among the big trees of Mamʹre while he was sitting at the entrance of the tent during the hottest part of the day. 2 He looked up and saw three men standing some distance from him. When he saw them, he ran from the entrance of the tent to meet them, and he bowed down to the ground. 3 Then he said: “Jehovah, if I have found favor in your eyes, please do not pass by your servant."
But I knew what he hadn't come to know. As the Bible of Jehovah's Witnesses has no primary source, the Masoretic Text on which this version is based in particular is not a primary source.
See this picture and see how many versions exist before it.
So let's see another verse that my Adventist friend relies on so much :)
Genesis 18:22 "Then the men left from there and went toward Sodʹom, but Jehovah remained with Abraham."
"This is one of Jehovah, the Father!" - we could say, according to my Adventist friend theory. :) The other two Jehovah, the Son and the Holy Spirit went to Lot. :)
But this is a big problem with this theory, because the New Testament disqualifies it everywhere! In many places in the New Testament it is emphasized that no one saw God!
Why do the New Testament authors always emphasize this? Was this really so important? Yes, because in their time existed this idea that God was seen in the Old Testament period. Yes, this idea appeared precisely in the Jewish Bibles they were reading.
But a question arises, if not this idea was forced in later versions of the Jewish Bibles by the Jewish scribes?
It seems so - I will not discuss the reasons here, I leave them for another post - here I will show the reconstruction of these verses masked by Jewish writers:
Genesis 18: "1Afterward, Jehovah's angels appeared to him among the big trees of Mamʹre while he was sitting at the entrance of the tent during the hottest part of the day. 2 He looked up and saw three men standing some distance from him. When he saw them, he ran from the entrance of the tent to meet them, and he bowed down to the ground. 3 Then he said to Jehovah's angels, if I have found favor in your eyes, please do not pass by your servant."
So simple :)
But not understanding the theological juggernaut on the ancient text made by the Jewish writers, the translators of this version claim that the three angels who came to Abraham (Genesis 18, Genesis 19), were called "Jehovah", though at that time the name of God was not known, and it was discovered through Moses, and the testimony of the Bible is clear, which says that no one has ever seen God:
Exodus 6: 3 "I appeared to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, as the Almighty (El Shadday); but I was not known by him under my name as "Jehovah."
1Timothy 6:16 "the only one who has immortality, who dwells in a light which you cannot approach, which no man has seen, nor can see, and has eternal honor and power! Amen."
Johnny Weaver
Is the New World Translation correct in placing Jehovah in this verse(Genesis 18:3)? They do so because this verse is listed as one of the places that the Jewish scribes allegedly replaced Jehovah with Adoni or Adonai. See Appendix 32 of the Companion Bible:
ReplyDeletehttp://www.therain.org/appendixes/app32.html
I guess you've read Ginsburg on this question.
ReplyDeleteNET Bible: The MT has the form אֲדֹנָי (ʾadonay, “Master”) which is reserved for God. This may reflect later scribal activity. The scribes, knowing it was the Lord, may have put the proper pointing with the word instead of the more common אֲדֹנִי (ʾadoni, “my master”).