Regarding alcohol: Psalm 104:15 exclaims that God created wine to make the heart of man rejoice. Paul also told Timothy to take a "little wine" for his stomach and frequent cases of illness, and Jesus both turned water into wine and imbibed moderately himself from time to time (1 Tim 5:21). He was accused of being a glutton and winebibber, which wouldn't make much sense unless he ate food of some kind and drank wine to some degree. Of course the charges were false, but teetotalers normally don't get accused of being winebibbers unless there is some ulterior motive for making the charge or it could just be a mistaken view of the individual suffering the calumny.
John Chrysostom once observed:
"Drunkenness then surely does not arise from wine, but from intemperance. Wine is bestowed upon us for no other purpose than for bodily health; but this purpose also is thwarted by immoderate use."
That whole segment in Psalms is talking about common a garden Agriculture.
ReplyDeleteProverbs 20 gives a different spin on Agriculture.
Paul told Timothy - Really????
ReplyDeleteProv 31:6 - https://www.clearviewtreatment.com/resources/blog/depression-symptoms-alcohol/
ReplyDeleteGreat advise !?!?
1 Timothy is a letter from Paul addressed to Timothy
ReplyDeleteProverbs 20 warns against drunkenness or abuse of alcohol. It does not prohibit the total use of it.
ReplyDeleteLike all things, Proverbs 31:6-7 must be read in context. JWs do not encourage dependence on wine when one is depressed and neither does the Bible. Numerous commentators have pointed out the apparent meaning of the proverb.
ReplyDeleteThe evidence is that those who suffer from depression (clinical) should definitely NOT partake. No way round it.
ReplyDeletehttps://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/0142064X231163230
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Mark+9%3A5%2CMark+11%3A21%2CMark+14%3A45&version=NIV
ReplyDeleteAnything in the Torah to set the age, no, but Jesus did.
Duncan, I just said that about depression. I guess we agree on that point, but the proverb is not encouraging clinical depressed people to drink wine. Firstly, clinical depression wasn't a thing in antiquity and secondly, it's talking about folks who are perishing. But I said earlier that JWS and the Bible don't encourage people to drink and try to relieve their depression. I know about the problems that crop up when someone does that.
ReplyDeleteI'm not sure what your last remarks have to do with the subject of wine, so I will refrain from commenting on those.
ReplyDeleteIs what constitutes clinical depression a modern invention ????
ReplyDeleteJust because a category does not exist on paper at a given time does not mean it does not exist - eg. ecology.
https://biblehub.com/text/proverbs/31-6.htm
So, is someone bitter in mind NOT depressed in some way?
You hang a lot on "perished" https://biblehub.com/hebrew/leoved_6.htm
Did all godly men die??? - https://biblehub.com/text/micah/7-2.htm The term can mean "ruined".
Most important of all is the gift of the communion cup, through which we partake in the blood of the Lord Jesus Christ, and renew our new covenant with Him.
ReplyDeleteThe phenomena were there (the causes of clinical depression) but they had yet to be defined, studied, clarified, etc. I agree that something can exist while we have no term for it. Moreover, as with ecology, no field of study (a science) existed for it either. Psychology proper did not exist until modernity.
ReplyDeleteOf course, all godly men did not die, but Proverbs 31:6-7 likely has in mind those who are perishing or near death. I doubt very seriously that the verse encourages people of God to drink when severely depressed. That goes against the thrust of Proverbs 3:5-6 and many other passages in Proverbs. And I'm 99%-100% certain the verse is not dealing with clinical depression or what would have been the ancient equivalent of it.
Michel V. Fox (AB Commentary) on Prov. 31:8-9: who are about to expire [beney ḥălop]: Lit., “sons of passing away.” This could mean all mortals (see the use of ḥlp in Ps 90:5–6; Job 9:26), in which case the phrase would be extending the range of the king’s beneficiaries from the dumb to everyone. But since Prov 31:9 continues to focus on the poor, the phrase is best understood as equivalent to ʾobed “him who is perishing” (v 6a). These are people on the verge of death, whether from starvation or from persecution. Compare the
ReplyDeletephrase beney mawet, lit., “sons of death,” which means those who are in immediate danger of death (1 Sam 20:31; 26:16; 2 Sam 12:5).
Robert Alter likewise contends about the same proverb:
ReplyDeleteall fleeting folk. The Hebrew beney halof (“those who are to pass away”) might mean ephemeral or mortal human beings, as it does in modern Hebrew, or it might designate a specific disadvantaged segment of the population teetering on the brink of death, like “the perishing man” in verse 6
In his commentary, Bruce Waltke uses "perishing" in the translation of Prov 31:6, then in a footnote, he maintains:
ReplyDeleteOr, “dying” (cf. Num. 17:12 [17:27]; Job 29:13). The verb is mostly used of the devastating destructive end that God inflicts on the wicked. In Proverbs it is otherwise always used of the wicked. However, since the verb may be used
without a specific reference to the wicked (cf. Jer 40:15; Job 6:18; 29:13), that connotation is best not insisted on here.
Waltke interprets Proverbs 31:6-7 as sarcasm. He has some good points, but I think he takes that line of reasoning too far. It is my opinion that he is letting his feelings about wine get in the way of exegesis. Yet I agree with him that the writer of Proverbs is not espousing wine as an "opiate for the masses."
ReplyDeleteThat's a good point, Andrew.
ReplyDeletehttps://biblehub.com/text/proverbs/31-7.htm
ReplyDeletehttps://biblehub.com/hebrew/chalof_2475.htm
https://bam.sites.uiowa.edu/RTL/rtl-words-mot
"This idea of the gods as being able to restore tbG. dead to life
(niuballit miti) was most probably used of persons recovering from
extreme illness or from a state of great misery."
https://research-repository.st-andrews.ac.uk/bitstream/handle/10023/13546/JohnBurnsPhDThesis.pdf;jsessionid=A28EB4553C7E205CB3B6B0BAC56C2F1F?sequence=2
NET Bible translates the last portion of Prov 31:8 as to "the dying, but in the translation ftn, we read:
ReplyDeleteOr “of all the defenseless.” The noun חֲלוֹף (khalof) means “passing away; vanishing” (properly an infinitive); in this construction “the sons of the passing away” means people who by nature are transitory, people who are dying—mortals. But in this context it would indicate people who are “defenseless” as opposed to those who are healthy and powerful.
Either way, the proverb would encourage giving wine to those dying or those in severe distress. The two ways it's commonly been read is a) give the dying wine like some today get morphine; b) the proverb is using sarcasm.
But regardless of the interpretation, the Bible does not condemn moderate drinking and even implies that wine can be medicinal.
I disagree, but that nothing new, is it?
ReplyDeleteThe context is clear.
Duncan, I'm not surprised that you disagree and I'm not going to try to convince you otherwise, but you didn't say what your point of disagreement was. By mentioning the context, I guess you disagree with the NET comments? I'm not sure but I don't see how you can disagree with my last sentence above.
ReplyDeleteWine is NOT medicinal regardless of all the industry supported studies to try and prove otherwise.
ReplyDeletehttps://nutritionfacts.org/topics/alcohol/
ReplyDeleteThe bible does not tell us to drink in moderation. The author of first timothy thought it might be, but that does not equate to something we are bound to follow.
ReplyDeleteI am getting tired of the implications that people attribute to the text. The bible does not say that the earth is a sphere either, but it is implied that it does since it would be hazardous to say otherwise. The circle of the earth is an Egyptian explanation with very different implications.
All we actually know its that it said someone had stomach problems and that the author recommended wine - DO WE KNOW IT ACTUALLY WORKED ?????
ReplyDeleteFor the record, I hardly ever drink wine, perhaps once a year. So I'm not stumping for the freedom to drink, which I believe is there in the text anyway.
ReplyDeleteI don't know if all the studies that tout the benefits of wine used moderately are supported by the industry, but the belief that moderate use of wine is ok and could be medicinal came way before modern industries even came into being.
And we know that nutritionfacts.org can't be mistaken.
My exact words were that the Bible does not condemn moderate drinking, which is not the same as saying that it tells us to drink in moderation--a claim that I did not make. A person might choose to drink and that's fine, if done moderately, but another may choose not to drink. That's cool too as long as he/she does not condemn the one who drinks moderately. Psalm 104:15 portrays wine as a gift from God and other references can be cited to show that drinking wine in se, is not wrong.
I never said we were bound to drink in moderation: my comments pertained to if someone makes the choice to drink.
I wasn't there when Timothy consumed the wine (apparently), so I can't say if it worked or not, but the ancients in many parts of the earth considered wine have some medicinal value if used properly and that includes Bible writers. Btw, 1 Timothy is a Bible book.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6099584/
ReplyDeleteThis article discusses the pros and cons of drinking wine: https://www.webmd.com/diet/health-benefits-red-wine
I read the nutritionfacts article and checked other articles regarding wine and breast cancer. Many echo the caution urged by NF and I certainly would not want to see any woman get breast cancer from drinking wine or other forms of alcohol, plus we live in an imperfect world, so that has to be taken into account.
ReplyDeleteOn the other hand, see https://divisionofresearch.kaiserpermanente.org/alcohol-breast-cancer-recurrence/
NIV Cultural Backgrounds Study Bible: "use a little wine. Most people drank wine with their meals. It was watered down (often about two parts water to one part wine), and not distilled to a higher than natural degree of fermentation. Some have suggested that Timothy was abstaining from wine to avoid the criticism of the false teachers (4:3). your stomach. Wine was often used to settle stomachs and was thought to prevent dysentery; it could be used to disinfect water. Some restorative diets recommended water, others wine; wine was also used in some remedies (i.e., medicinally)."
ReplyDeleteCompare Luke 10:34
From Gordon Fee's commentary on the PE (1 Tim. 5:23):
ReplyDeleteThus he says, stop drinking only water. Every other known
use of this verb in antiquity means to drink only water in the
sense of abstaining from wine. Therefore, Paul is saying, by keeping yourself pure, I do not mean to live as an 'abstainer:' Indeed
the insistence on abstinence is a part of the hypocrisy of the false
teachers, one of their 'sins:' On the contrary, Timothy is to use
a little wine, for the sake of his own good health. The use of wine
is because of your stomach and your frequent illnesses. In making this recommendation Paul is merely reflecting the widespread
use of wine for medicinal purposes among both Jews and Greeks.
Footnote: 5:23 / The place of this verse in its context has long been one of
the puzzles of 1 Timothy, so much so that Moffatt omitted it altogether from
his translation. For those who deny Pauline authorship, both its placement
and the details of its content present problems. As Kelly correctly notes:
"The very banality of the verse strikes a note of authenticity'' (p. 128).
The medicinal use of wine, especially for stomach problems, is reflected in such varied sources as the Talmud (Berakoth Sla; Baba Bathra
58b), Hippocrates (Ancient Medicine 13), Plutarch (Advice About Keeping
Weil), and Pliny (Natural History 2.19). Kelly includes Prov. 31:6-7, but
on what appears to be very doubtful exegesis.
[So Fee apparently does not think Prov. 31:6-7 touts medicinal use of wine]
There was only one reason that they drank beer or wine that holds up to scrutiny, It can kill pathogens in bad water. The bad water was usually produced by bad agricultural practice of same people. Unfortunately that is the same as taking antibiotics for a bacterial imbalance. It doe not differentiate between killing good and bad.
ReplyDeleteWorkers in, for example, Tudor England had part of there wages in beer and I believe that was an Egyptian practise.
1 Timothy is a bible book, And ????? So is first John 4:1.
As for WebMD - compare https://nutritionfacts.org/video/friday-favorites-is-it-better-to-drink-little-alcohol-than-none-do-any-benefits-of-alcohol-outweigh-the-risks/
That other study is just a good news about bad habits type and in isolation does not hold any real weight.
ReplyDeleteI've said about all I want to say on this subject for now. I will briefly add that taking antibiotics is a personal choice: there are benefits and possible downsides to taking them, but the benefits probably outweigh the risks.
ReplyDeleteTo the original point, the Bible condemns drunkenness, not drinking per se. Moderation is the key.
WebMD showed the pros and cons, which agree with the Bible, common sense, and history whereas the articles on NF seem to manifest a bias towards drinking at all, which is contradicted by more recent studies.
Lastly, the Mediterranean diet results suggest moderate drinking can be a positive thing, ceteris paribus.
Deuteronomy 14:26
ReplyDeleteRemember Deuteronomy 14:21? Weirdness.
ReplyDeleteAnd 14:22 just backs up what I was saying, this is bog standard civilisation with all its trappings of hierarchy and taxes.
Yes, you go with WebMD because it agrees with the bible. Common sense is highly overrated.
I already said about industry funded studies with poor design and NF is not a single doctor, it's about 100 researchers trawling all the studies.
https://www.health.harvard.edu/blog/is-red-wine-good-actually-for-your-heart-2018021913285
ReplyDeleteLet me know when you are going to offer up your next tithe?
ReplyDeleteAs I mentioned earlier, I'm going to be busy over the coming days and I've got other projects to finish as well. But I would like to see more evidence before I assented to your view of Deut. 14:22. I think the tithing system was about much more than hierarchy and taxes. Plus we can't forget the, you know, fact that Deuteronomy is all about God.
ReplyDeleteThanks for also misrepresenting my view about WEbMD. I like the article there, not because it agrees with the Bible, but because it gives both sides about drinking and it comports with other things I've read. WEbMD is not merely touting the benefits of drinking but it points to the harms too.
Common sense is not so common either. Admittedly, common sense has its limitations but the world could use more of it.
It's funny that I can usually predict what NF will assert about a certain matter. They seem to have a very narrow view of medical matters and when reading what NF stated about wine, I don't recall one potential benefit being mentioned nor any contravening studies being cited. Maybe it just wasn't in that one link. I'm used to scholarship that gives more than one side of things.
As a side note, I do believe the Bible contains peerless wisdom and I'm not ashamed of putting my faith in God and his wise counsel.
I will offer up my next tithe when my crops produce some fruitage. Eat, drink and see good for your hard work.
Earlist evidenc of wine production is in Mesopotamia - Sumer
ReplyDeletehttps://www.codedevino.com/world-of-wine/the-way-of-wine/at-the-dawn-of-civilization-the-wine-culture-of-mesopotamia
http://www.historyshistories.com/mesopotamia-daily-life-in-sumer.html
https://jurnal.syntax-idea.co.id/index.php/syntax-idea/article/view/1462/914
https://discovery.ucl.ac.uk/id/eprint/1349279/1/454702_vol1.pdf
THERE ARE NO BENEFITS TO ALCOHOL INGESTION & that's probably why you intuitively know what NF has to say. People drink it because they like it - period.
We could soak cigarette papers in B12 & then claim a benefit to smoking too.
Nice assertion about wine not having benefits, but that's hard to prove with data. So, any doctor or expert who contradicts NF has no clue? How convenient. Lastly, all those folks who lived long lives and enjoyed good health as they consumed wine moderately might teach us something.
ReplyDeletehttps://www.penn.museum/sites/biomoleculararchaeology/research/ancient-wine/
ReplyDeletehttps://www.nationalgeographic.com/history/article/oldest-winemaking-grapes-georgia-archaeology
ReplyDeleteLook up the global turnover of the wine industry. There was a time in the 1950s and 1960s where plenty of studies stated that smoking cigarettes were actually good for you.
ReplyDeleteSo before the creation of man wine was being made???? Just saying.
ReplyDeletehttps://www.pnas.org/doi/10.1073/pnas.1714728114
I will check through the data.
https://www.pnas.org/doi/suppl/10.1073/pnas.1714728114/suppl_file/pnas.1714728114.sapp.pdf
ReplyDelete"The latter are residues from ancient vessels which likely originally contained wine, based on strong archaeological criteria or exterior inscriptions which recorded their contents."
Grape does not = wine.
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0889157503000656
"Glycolysis, the Krebs cycle, glyoxylic acid cycle and shikimic acid pathways are active in grape cells in generating a variety of organic acids (Kanellis & Roubelakis-Angelakis, 1993; Eskin, 1990). Tartaric and malic acids, dominant organic acids, account for 90% or more of the total acidity in grapes (Philip & Nelson, 1973; Cash, Sistrunk, & Stutle, 1977; Kanellis & Roubelakis-Angelakis, 1993; Patil et al., 1995). Acetic, cis-aconitic, ascorbic, cinnamic, citric, isocitric, formic, fumaric, galacturonic, gallic, glutaric, glyceric, glycolic, glyoxylic, o-hydroxybenzoic, p-hydroxybenzoic, α-ketoglutotaric, lactic, mandelic, mucic, oxalacetic, oxalic, phosphoric, pyrolidone carboxylic, pyruvic, salicylic, shicimic and succinic acids are minor identified organic acids in grapes (Fuleki et al., 1993)."
https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/chemical-engineering/organic-acid#:~:text=Tartaric%20acid%2C%20malic%20acid%2C%20and,acid%20generally%20increases%20during%20aging.
"Tartaric acid, malic acid, and citric acid come from the grape berry and are natural organic acids existing in plants. Lactic acid, acetic acid, and succinic acid come from alcoholic fermentation and malic acid–lactic acid fermentation. Acetic acid generally increases during aging."
I am very familiar with spectroscopy and it limitations. I design NDIR technology which also has calibration and cross identification problems.
I'll defer to you8r expertise, but from what I read, the article didn't claim that grape = wine or that they simply detected evidence of grapes. The exact statement I have in mind is:
ReplyDelete"Samples of special interest are those that provide matches to ancient and modern wine samples, to a high level of probability (90 or above on a scale of 100, according to Thermo Scientific’s proprietary OMNIC algorithm). All spectra were deresolved at 4 cm-1 wavenumber."
Hence, the article mentions a high level of probability for a match between ancient and modern wine samples, but does not state the matter dogmatically or just seem to base the conclusion on the presence of grapes.
The article makes qualified statements again and notice the mention of "exterior inscriptions" as well as ancient vessels which are believed to have contained wine.
See also https://phys.org/news/2017-11-earliest-evidence-winemaking-team-year-old.html
A 2022 article that examines the archaeological evidence from Georgia: https://www.mdpi.com/2571-9408/5/2/43
ReplyDeleteWhat inscriptions? These are the ones I have found online - https://www.jstor.org/stable/25683459
DeleteA fermentation process does not fundamentally change the makeup of these acids.
ReplyDeletehttps://www.mdpi.com/2311-7524/9/11/1173
If the vessel contained grape juice when abandoned it woul ferment all on its own in any case. Its not so news worthy to state that vessels with grapes on them contained grapes.
How would one differentiate between kimchi, sauerkraut & rotten old cabbage?
It still boils down to good news about bad habits, like saying man and wine grew up together.
As for that study's claims of health benefits of fermented products. Fermented foods may have benefits but most others do not produce alcohol.
https://www.tagaripublications.com/product/ferment-and-human-nutrition/
More evidence of ancient Georgian wine and a discussions about inscriptions: http://www.winenous.co.uk/wp/wp-content/uploads/2022/03/qvevri-22-2021-05-21.pdf
ReplyDeleteWe're talking probabilities here, but it seems pretty high that wine was being made, not simply grape juice. They tested for acids associated with wine plus the inscriptions tell a story.
You say drinking wine is a bad habit unlike the Bible, which portrays wine as a gift from God that should be used moderately, if used at all. See also Hosea 2:8.
Anything can be abused, including food, sleep and your tongue. Are we going to condemn money too?
https://www.hsph.harvard.edu/news/features/red-wine-mediterranean-diet/
ReplyDeleteRomans 14:20-21 (ESV):
ReplyDelete"Do not, for the sake of food, destroy the work of God. Everything is indeed clean, but it is wrong for anyone to make another stumble by what he eats. 21 It is good not to eat meat or drink wine or do anything that causes your brother to stumble."
I would like to emphasize that no one is compelled to drink, and some people might need to abstain due to health or past abuses with alcohol. However, my point has been that wine in and of itself (in se) is not bad and could be viewed as a divine gift.
ReplyDeleteContext please - 21 It is better >>>not<<< to eat meat or drink wine or to do anything else that will cause your brother or sister to fall.
ReplyDeleteIts not a 2 way street & Paul is still Torah based.
ReplyDelete"Its egg-shape with puffy sides and narrowed end indicates some knowledge and experience of wine making." - Same as ancient Italian oil jars & a bunch of grapes on the side of the Jar (as I had already pointed) out does NOT point to wine. There is nothing here that is unique to wine.
ReplyDeleteMore junk in that Harvard document. If you want all the good stuff then eat a grape for goodness sake.
ReplyDeleteI know where the faculty loyalty lies - https://dash.harvard.edu/handle/1/37370042
https://www.wsj.com/articles/harvard-quietly-amasses-california-vineyardsand-the-water-underneath-1544456396
ReplyDeleteI didn't say why I posted Romans 14:20-21, but it wasn't necessarily to prove it's okay to drink wine. Yes, he mentions not drinking wine but notice that's the verse contains a conditional statement. IF wine makes my brother stumble: so it's not inherently wrong to drink wine but he's willing to forego drinking wine or eating meat if it makes his brother stumble.
ReplyDeleteI think Paul is not utterly separated from the Hebrew Bible but the same set of scriptures (i.e., Torah) does not prohibit wine drinking either.
There are things unique to wine, according to what I read in the article, but I won't belabor the point. If you choose not to drink wine, I respect your decision; how about respecting the decisions of others who choose differently? As I also stated probably more than once, I hardly ever drink wine. Maybe once or twice a year, so I know that's not going to destroy my health.
It's not just Harvard faculty that says wine can be healthy in moderation. Just look at the numerous studies on the Mediterranean diet. At any rate, I'm really finished now. I say this in jest: eat, drink, and see good for all your hard work.