1. Jesus is never given the designation "Creator" in the Bible. See 1 Peter 4:19; Revelation 4:10-11.
Compare Emil Brunner's Dogmatics
(Volume I) entitled "The Christian Doctrine of God."
On page 308 of his work, Brunner writes concerning Colossians 1:15-17:
"In this connexion the truth which we have already seen acquires new
significance, that the world, it is true, was created THROUGH--DIA--the Son, but not BY--hUPO--the
Son, that it has been created IN Him and UNTO Him, but that He Himself
is never called the Creator. It has pleased God the Creator to create
the world in the Son, through the Son, and unto the Son. The fact that
between the Creator and the Creation there stands the Mediator of
creation means that the world is an act of the freedom of God, that it
does not proceed from the Logos."
While Brunner thinks that the Son of God is "eternal," he does not
reason that Christ is ever called "Creator" in Scripture. He argues that
the Logos is the mediate agent of creation or the one through whom God
brings forth the cosmos, but the Son is never referred to as Creator in Scripture nor is he said to create anything.
2. The Bible never exhorts Christians to make Jesus an object of prayer
Not one verse in the Bible gives any such command; contrast this omission with Matthew 6:9; Philippians 4:6-7. Christians are taught to pray to the Father, through the Son, and in the holy spirit. Some try to hand prayer to Jesus on John 14:13-14. However, it's highly doubtful that "me" belongs in John 14:14.
3. Jesus is never called Almighty God
If Jesus is omnipotent, then why is he never said to be omnipotent, unlike his God and Father (Genesis 17:1; Revelation 19:6)? Could we not have at least one occurrence of Jesus being called "almighty"?
4. Did Jesus become human?
Jesus is supposed to be God and he's generally thought to be immutable (some try to use Hebrews 13:8 to prove this idea). If this belief is true, then please explain how Jesus came to be human. Was he always human or did he become human? If Jesus became human, then does this not indicate a change in his very being? How was this possible if Jesus possessed the attribute of divine immutability, especially if he was strongly immutable?
5. Does Jesus have a "head" and a God over him?
See 1 Corinthians 11:3; John 20:17; Revelation 3:12.
6. God resurrected Jesus
Acts 2:32 makes this affirmation. 1 Peter 1:20-21 also professes: "He was foreknown before the foundation of the world but was made manifest in the last times for the sake of you who through him are believers in God, who raised him from the dead and gave him glory, so that your faith and hope are in God" (ESV).
Through him, we become what? Who raised Jesus from the dead and gave him glory? Did he do it? Peter says it was God, so that our faith and hope might be in God. If you were a first-century Jew who read these words without Trinitarian presuppositions, how would you understand the verse?
7. A God who is his own high priest?
Are we to believe that Jesus is his own high priest? That is, is Jesus the high priest for his Father or for himself? What would it mean for a God to be his own high priest?
8. Jesus is supposed to be God, yet there are things the Father knows that Jesus apparently does not know
See Matthew 24:36; Mark 13:32; Acts 1:6-7; Revelation 1:1
Sporadic theological and historical musings by Edgar Foster (Ph.D. in Theology and Religious Studies and one of Jehovah's Witnesses).
Yes, the Lord Jesus is Almighty God. The very first passage you cited (1 Peter 4:19) gives proof that He is the Creator.
ReplyDelete1 Peter 4:19
Therefore, those also who suffer according to the will of God shall entrust their souls to a faithful Creator in doing what is right. (NASB)
Entrusting one's souls to a faithful Creator corresponds with the Shepherd and Guardian watching and protecting a person's soul in 1 Peter 2:25.
1 Peter 2:25
For you were continually straying like sheep, but now have returned to the Shepherd and Guardian of your souls. (NASB)
a. BDAG (3rd Edition): Of Christ (w. poimēn) e. twn psychῶn guardian of the souls 1 Pt 2:25 (episkopos, page 379).
b. Exegetical Dictionary of the New Testament (EDNT): According to 1 Pet 2:25 Christ is the shepherd and overseer of souls (2:36, episkopos, J. Rohde).
c. Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament: Based on Semantic Domains: In 1 Pe 2.25 episkopos is applied to Christ (35.43, episkopos, page 463, J. P. Louw and Eugene Nida).
Proverbs 24:12
If you say, “See, we did not know this,”
Does He not consider it who weighs the hearts?
And does He not know it who keeps your soul?
And will He not render to man according to his work? (NASB)
A person can entrust their soul to the Creator because He (1) weighs the hearts, and (2) keeps their soul, and (3) renders to man according to his work.
That the Lord Jesus weighs the hearts of all (Revelation 2:23; cf. John 2:24-25), and keeps their soul (1 Peter 2:25), and will render to man according to his work (Matthew 16:27) demonstrates that He is the Creator.
1 Peter 2:25 is another passage (among many) that the Jehovah's Witnesses have contradicted themselves as to whether or not it is referring to the Father or the Lord Jesus.
a. The God of Eternity and the Ancient of Days
The Watchtower: He, as the God of eternity and the "Ancient of Days," is the Chief Elder, the Great Shepherd and Overseer of our souls. (1 Pet. 2:25) His example is always the right one to follow. (Divine Mercy Points the Way Back for Erring Ones, August 1, 1974, page 463)
https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1974564
b. Jesus
The Watchtower: Jesus' disciples were grateful for his fellowship. Though they called him Lord and Master, he proved himself to be a fellow worker. He was their overseer, but one who set the example for them by sharing right along with them in the work that was to be done. (1 Pet. 2:25) (Giving Encouragement to Others, July 15, 1963, page 434).
https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1963523
The author of Hebrews applies YHWH being the Creator (Psalm 102:25) unto the Lord Jesus in Hebrews 1:10 which proves Jesus is the Creator.
Hebrews 1:10 (Psalm 102:25)
And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands. (KJV)
When defining "hands" (cheir) the BDAG (3rd Edition) reads, "The hand of deity means divine power...As Creator...Hebrews 1:10" (page 1082).
Concerning the "Lord" the BDAG (3rd Edition) reads, "Kyrios is also used in reference to Jesus...Hb 1:10 (page 577).
Jesus is the Creator (God).
https://www.angelfire.com/space/thegospeltruth/TTD/verses/john2_19.html
ReplyDeletehttps://www.angelfire.com/space/thegospeltruth/TTD/verses/hebrews1_10.html
ReplyDeleteFR, you try to connect 1 Peter 4:19 with 1 Pet. 2:25, but the word translated "Creator" is used just once in the GNT, and there is not enough contextual or lexical information to tie the Creator of 1 Pet. 4:19 with the shepherd of 1 Pet. 2:25. I will post some thoughts later.
ReplyDelete"A third-century ce marble plaque with the Thracian Horseman in relief bears the inscription Ἥρωι κτίστῃ ('to the founder hero'; ISM III 93)."
ReplyDelete"From the outset the association alludes to its long-standing reputation of Pergamon as the first provincial cult of Asia Minor through its self-identification as the ὑµνῳδοὶ θεοῦ Σεβαστοῦ καὶ θεᾶς Ῥώµης. The designation of Hadrian as “Savior and Founder” (σωτῆρι καὶ κτίστηι) alludes to his established reputation as benefactor of Asian cities."
ReplyDeleteEdgar,
ReplyDeleteYou missed the point. I am well aware that "Creator" is used just once. Howvere psychē, in reference to the protection, watchfulnes and care for the believers "souls" is used in both 1 Peter 2:25 and 1 Peter 4:19.
Nor is the fact at all diminished that the Jehovah's Witnesses applied 1 Peter 2:25 in reference to the Father and to the Lord Jesus.
J. Ramsey Michaels (WB Commentary on 1 Peter):
ReplyDeleteπιστῷ κτίστῃ, “to a faithful creator.” Only here in the NT is God explicitly referred to as κτίστης, or “creator” (the participle, ὁ κτίσας, or “the One who created,” is more common: Matt 19:4; Rom 1:25; Eph 3:9; Col 3:10; for κτίστης, however, see 1 Clem 19.2, 62.2, and in Jewish literature, Sir 24:8; 2 Macc 1:24; 7:23; 13:14; 4 Macc 5:25; 11:5; Ep. Arist. 16; Philo, Spec. Leg. 1.30). Peter prefers here a designation expressing God’s common relationship to every human being instead of one that Christians viewed as theirs exclusively (like “Father” in 1:17). A likely reason is that he has just grouped believer and unbeliever together under a single divine judgment (vv 17–18). “Judge” would therefore have been an appropriate term (cf. 1:17; 4:5), but Peter has opted instead for “creator,” possibly because he sees God’s authority as universal judge resting on his role as creator of all people. Although he has not mentioned creation before (except in a set phrase in 1:20), his reverence for God as creator was implicit in his earlier commands to “defer to every human creature” (2:13; see Comment), and to “show respect for everyone” (2:17). πιστός, “faithful,” or worthy of trust, is appropriate in connection with the verb παρατιθεσθαι, “entrust” (cf. 2 Tim 2:2). πιστός is used of God or Christ in Paul’s phrase, “God is faithful” (1 Cor 1:9; 10:13; 2 Cor 1:18), and similar formulations (e.g., 1 Thess 5:24; 2 Thess 3:3; Heb 10:23; cf. 2 Tim 2:13). In association with God as creator, see especially 1 Clem 60.1: “You, Lord, created the earth, [you] the faithful one in all
ations.”
Thomas R. Schreiner (NA Commentary on 1 Peter):
ReplyDeleteThe reference to God's will here as in 3:17 indicates that all suffering passes through his hands (cf. 3:17), that nothing strikes a believer apart from God's loving and sovereign control.⁵⁰ When suffering strikes, believers should “commit themselves to their faithful Creator.” Christ modeled what Peter enjoined, for when he was suffering, he entrusted himself to God (1 Pet 2:23). Jesus used the same word (paratith mi) when he entrusted his spirit to God at his death (Luke 23:46). In Acts the word is used when Paul entrusted his converts to God (Acts 14:23; 20:32), and in the Pastorals the word designates the entrusting of God's truth to faithful men (1 Tim 1:18; 2 Tim 2:2). Similarly, believers should entrust their lives to God as Creator.⁵¹ The reference to God as Creator (ktisths) implies his sovereignty, for the Creator of the world is also sovereign over it.⁵² Therefore believers can be confident that he will not allow them to suffer beyond their capacity and that he will provide the strength needed to endure. Such confidence can be theirs because he is a “faithful” Creator, faithful to his promises and faithful to his people, never abandoning them in their time of need, always vindicating the righteous and condemning the wicked (cf. 4:17–18). The way believers will reveal that they are trusting in God is by continuing “to do good” (agathopoiia).
Pulpit Commentary: The word rendered "Creator"(κτίστης) Occurs nowhere else in the Greek Testament. God is our Creator, the Father of spirits, He gave the spirit; to him it returneth. We must imitate our dying Lord, and, like him, commit our souls to the keeping of our heavenly Father as a deposit which may be left with perfect confidence in the hands of a faithful Creator (see 2 Timothy 1:12). There is an evident reference here to our Lord's words upon the cross (Luke 23:46; Psalm 31:5). St. Peter adds, "in well-doing." The Christian's faith must bring forth the fruits of holy living; even in the midst of suffering he must "be careful to maintain good works."
Expositor's GT:
So let even those who suffer in accordance with the will of God with a faithful Creator deposit their souls in well-doing. The Christian must still follow the pattern. It is God’s will that he share Christ’s sufferings in whatever degree; let him in this also copy Christ, who said, Father into thy hands I commit my spirit (Luke 23:46 = Psalm 31:6) and bade His disciples lose their souls that they might find them unto life eternal. With this teaching Peter combines that of the Psalmist which is assumed by Jesus (Matthew 6:25 ff.), Jehovah knows His creature. He the God of faithfulness (אל אמת, Ps. l.c.) is the faithful Creator to whom the soul He gave and redeemed (Ps. l.c.) may confidently return.
Entrusting one's soul to God ought to be done (1 Peter 4:19). This same trust is to be given to Jesus because He is God according to 1 Peter 2:25. In fact, the same Greek word for "entrust" (paratithēmi) used in 1 Peter 4:19 in reference to what one should do in reference to the Creator is also used in reference to what believers did to one another in relation to the "Lord" in Acts 14:23 - the "Lord" being Jesus.
ReplyDeleteBDAG (3rd Edition) (citing Acts 14:23): Christ (pisteuō, page 817).
FR, I like you, but come on. I didn't miss your point but just disagree with you and your view of 1 Pet. 4:19. Peter's use of ψυχὰς does not necessarily mean that both verses have the same person in mind. That is a faulty inference.
ReplyDeleteMoreover, it's possible that Christ is not the referent of 1 Peter 2:25 though I tend to agree that he is. And I'm well aware of how the WT publications have applied 1 Pet. 2:25 over the years. Either way, as you can see, JWs are not alone in understanding Jehovah God as the referent of 1 Pet. 4:19.
Speaking of missing the point, you failed to discern why I said what I did about the word creator.
ReplyDeleteYeah and Jesus entrusted himself to the Father. See 1 Peter 2:21-23.
ReplyDeleteThen compare Acts 20:32.
I've looked at numerous commentaries and have yet to find one that agrees with your construal of 1 Pet. 4:19. There's probably one out there, but Thayer is likely correct when he applies the verse to God. I haven't checked BDAG yet, but Danker and company might concur.
ReplyDeleteBoth passages (1 Peter 2:25 and 1 Peter 4:19 - you failed to address Acts 14:26) refer to God watching over, caring for and protecting the believer's soul.
ReplyDeleteTheological Dictionary of the New Testament (TDNT): Christ is He who has the fullest knowledge of souls. He knows every inner secret, as is said of God in Wis. 1:6 and the passages quoted from Philo (-> 614). He is also the One who gives Himself most self-sacrificingly to care for the souls of the faithful (cf. episkopeō in Hb. 12:15). It is for this reason that poimēn and episkopos are so closely related. The phrase "shepherd and bishop of your souls" carries within it all that is said by Greek speaking Gentiles and Jews about God as episkopos. As suggested by the context, which points us to the deepest mysteries about salvation history, episkopos is thus a title of majesty ascribed to Jesus is His work in relation to the community (2:615, episkopos, Beyer).
Of course Christ would entrust Himself to the Father because He (Christ) is also a man. What you failt to realize is that He is also God.
You also avoided Hebrews 1:10 which teaches the Lord Jesus is the Creator.
Revelation 22:13
ReplyDeleteI am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end. (NASB)
The fact that the Lord Jesus speaks in reference to Himself demonstrates He is the Creator (God).
1. BDAG (3rd Edition): As a self-designation of the Risen Lord. the first and the last Rv 1:17; 2:8; 22:13 (eschatos, page 397).
2. Theological Dictionary of the New Testament (TDNT): The juxtaposition of the first and last letters of the Greek alphabet peculiar to Rev. It is used on the lips of God in 1:8 and also in 21:6; and on the lips of Christ in 22:13. It is also applied to Christ in 1:17: and 2:8. The meaning of a/w is fixed by its conjunction with arche/telos and protos/eschatos. It shows us that God or Christ is the One who begins and the One who ends, the Creator and Consummator, the One from whom and to whom are all things (1:1, AW, Kittel).
3. Thayer's Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament: the eternal One, Rev. 1.17; 2.8; 22.13 (protos, page 554).
4. New International Dictionary of New Testament Theology (NIDNTT): The formula "beginning and end" (cf. Isa. 41:4; 44:6; 48:12) expresses the power of God (21:6) and Christ (22:13) which embraces time and creation. Just as God is the beginning and end (cf. 1:8), the creator and perfecter of all things, so also is the exalted Christ (cf. 1:17; 2:8) (2:64, Goal, R. Schippers).
5. Mounce's Complete Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words: The word appears in Revelation in the phrase "beginning and end." This theologically rich phrase articulates the power of God (Rev. 21:6) and Christ (22:13), denoting both extremes of beginning and end along with everything temporally and spatially in between (End, page 212).
6. Theological Dictionary of the New Testament (TDNT): The self-designation of God in Rev. 21:6 (cf. 1:8) or Christ in Rev. 22:13: 'I am the beginning and the end' primarily denotes His eternity but then His absolute majesty (8:55, telos, Delling).
7. Vine's Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words: of Christ as the Eternal One, Rev. 1:17 (in some mss. ver. 11); 2:8; 22:13 (Last, page 641).
I didn't address some things because they've either been addressed before or they were not relevant to the topic or they don't establish your claim.
ReplyDelete1 Peter 2:25 technically does not refer to God. Acts 14:26 does not prove Jesus is God.You must mean Acts 14:23: assuming that Jesus is the Lord of that verse, have you ever thought that one could commend himself to God and Christ? By the way, see BDAG for how Creator applies in 1 Peter 4:19. As mentioned earlier, Jesus entrusted himself to God, thus setting an example for us.
You mention this point, then bring up the false incarnation doctrine. That doctrine still leaves a lot unexplained and it's incoherent. Besides, Jesus seems to exemplify limitations even after his resurrection.
I addressed Heb. 1:10 earlier. It can be understood through the prism of agency. To illustrate, who brought the ten plagues on Egypt? Was it YHWH or his angels? Who gave the law of Moses to Israel? Was it YHWH or his angels?
Duncan also posted something above about Hebrews 1:10 which you did not address.
ReplyDeleteYes, one can commend themselves to God and Christ for that accords with the Creator in 1 Peter 4:19. A Christian shouldn't another to anyone else baed on the context of these passages.
ReplyDeleteAgency does not apply when it comes to (1) prayer because one can just easily pray to the Father - and "agent" is therefore unnecessary. And yet the Bible teaches the Lord Jesus is the proper recipient of prayer, and (2) YHWH is never properly applied to a created being.
Hebrews 1:10 is in reference to Christ. The entire context of this passage refers to Him. The Son can refer to the Father as "God" just as the Father sees to it that the Son is referred to as "God" in Hebrews 1:10. The BDAG (3rd Editon) affirms Jesus is the "Lord" as well.
ReplyDeleteHere is from (a Unitarian) John Schoenheot: In the Old Testament it applied to Yahweh, but the author of Hebrews lifted it from the Psalms and applied it to Jesus Christ.
https://www.revisedenglishversion.com/comm/Heb/1/nav1
You never addressed Revelation 22:13.
Duncan,
ReplyDeletehttps://trinitydelusion.org/hebrews-1/
Edgar,
You asserted that "The Bible never exhorts Christians to make Jesus an object of prayer."
The above is incorrect. The Bible teaches the earlist Christians prayed to the Lord Jesus (Acts 1:24-25; 7:59; etc.). All Christians in all places prayed to the Lord Jesus (1 Corinthians 1:2).
Praying to the Lord Jesus (Acts 9:21) is a major component of "the faith" (Galatians 1:23) that all Christians must "contend earnestly for" (Jude 1:3).
The capital letters are mine.
Acts 9:21
All those hearing him continued to be amazed, and were saying, “Is this not he who in Jerusalem DESTROYED THOSE WHO CALLED ON THIS NAME, and who had come here for the purpose of bringing them bound before the chief priests?” (NASB)
Galatians 1:23
but only, they kept hearing, “He who once persecuted us is now preaching THE FAITH WHICH HE ONCE TRIED TO DESTROY." (NASB)
Jude 1:3
Beloved, while I was making every effort to write you about our common salvation, I felt the necessity to write to you appealing that you CONTEND EARNESTLY FOR THE FAITH which was once for all handed down to the saints. (NASB)
FR, when I said that Christians are not exhorted o make Jesus the recipient of prayer, I meant nowhere are we commanded to offer Jesus our prayers. You may claim that early Christians prayed to Jesus, but that's not the same as àn exhortation or command.
ReplyDeleteI don't have time to address Revelation 22:13, but Witnesses have addressed it before.
FR, the article you have posted regarding Kel's conclusions is generalising, which is not going to cut it. e.g.
ReplyDelete"In other words, the Greek language does not require a pedantic inclusion of the same verb throughout a sentence sequence."
This may be true as a generalisation, but is that true of the author of Hebrews? What other examples in this particular text demonstrate that style?
A command is gievn to believe in the Lord Jesus (Acts 16:31). To believe in Jesus means to believe what Paul "preached" (Romans 10:8) and this means one must pray to the Lord Jesus (Romans 10:13).
ReplyDeleteThe JW's have gone back and forth concerning Revelation 22:12, and in "The Finished Mystery" they had this to say abot Revelation 22:13:
I am Alpha and Omega, THE FIRST AND THE LAST, the Beginning and the End, [the First and the Last].—"Our Lord tells us over and over again (See Rev. 1:8, 11, 17; 2:8; 3:14; 21:6), that He is the Beginning and the Ending, the First and the Last, of the creation of God." (page 336)
The command to devote oneself to prayer (1 Corinthians 7:5) links with one's devotion to the Lord in reference to Jesus (1 Corinthians 7:35).
ReplyDeleteI guess you and I are at an impasse on the prayer issue, but let it be noted that my original claim stands. We approach the Father through Jesus, our high priest. We ask things in his name but the NT dies not tell us, pray to Jesus.
DeleteI gave plenty of evidence that teaches the Bible commands praying to Jesus. One of them is in my previuous response which wasn't even addressed.
ReplyDeleteUsing those Corinthian verses to prove Jesus is a proper recipient of prayer is a precarious endeavor at best.
ReplyDeleteFirst, you need to read quotes in context. Second, are you saying that you or people in Christendom have never adjusted your viewpoint about a scripture?
ReplyDeleteDenying the Lord Jesus is the proper recipient of prayer contradicts what 1 Corinthians 1:2 is teaching. The capitalized letters below are mine.
ReplyDeleteTheological Lexicon of the New Testament: First Corinthians is addressed to "those who call upon the name of our Lord Jesus Christ in any place" (1 Cor 1:2), the church being the gathering of those who adore Christ, who celebrate his worship (cf. Ps 145:18) AND PRAY TO HIM from a pure heart. Over and against the religious individualism of the Greek cities, all believers are united in their adoration of Christ as Lord and God; their common "invocation" is the expression of their unity. (2:44, epikaleō)
And this from (a Unitarian) John Schoenheit: “call on the name of our Lord Jesus Christ.” In this context, to “call on the name” of the Lord means to pray to him, to ask him for something. CHRISTIANS ARE TO CALL ON THE NAME OF THE LORD JESUS, THAT IS, PRAY TO HIM for help in life...When a person calls on the name of Yahweh, he prays to Yahweh. WHEN A PERSON CALLS ON THE NAME OF THE LORD JESUS, HE PRAYS TO JESUS. So we see that 1 Corinthians 1:2 mentions prayer to Jesus: “To the church of God in Corinth…together with all those everywhere who call on the name of our Lord Jesus Christ—their Lord and ours.”
http://www.revisedenglishversion.com/Commentary/1-Corinthians/Chapter1
I addressed your previous response where you wrongly invoked 1 Cor. 7:5, 35 as proof that we are commanded to offer Jesus prayer. Sorry, but you have not produced any evidence that we're commanded to offer prayer to God's Son, Jesus. Let me clarify for you. A command would be an imperatival statement like, "Pray to Jesus" or "Supplicate Jesus" (etc.). But no such command is found in the Bible. What you've presented are what you interpret as commands to offer Jesus prayer, but they're not really commands. Jesus taught us how to pray. Do you remember? Did he ever tell us to offer prayer to him?
ReplyDeleteTrinitarian appeal to a variant in John 14:14, but even that verse does not use the specific language of prayer, and the variant is highly doubtful anyway. 1 Cor. 7:35 says nothing about praying. Sorry, but you're reading things into these verses.
I will let Duncan continue to address 1 Corinthians 1:2 if he wishes. I'm moving on, my friend.
What does Psalm 145:18 have to do with offering Jesus our prayers? Talk about faulty exegesis.
ReplyDeleteGen 4:26 - is this when prayer began?
ReplyDelete"But we cannot agree that this was only now in 235th year of the world , the date of the birth of enosh, that men began to fall and worship God in prayer and adoration...."
All the prayers of the Bible -Herbert Lockyer.
He speculates on what it might mean but I still don't think it means prayer.
There is an interesting blog post regarding 1 Corinthians 1:2 that I do agree with regarding-
https://skipmoen.com/2018/05/call-upon-the-name/
"Call upon the name – In the Greek text this phrase is epikaloumenois to onoma. But Paul isn’t thinking in Greek. He is recalling a technical Hebraic phrase from Genesis. “In those days men began to call on the name of the Lord” (Genesis 4:26). The Hebrew expression (likro beshem YHVH) is an expression of ownership. It is not simply a request for divine assistance. In ancient cultures, no god would grant favor to someone who did not first offer worship. So when men began to call on the name YHVH, they were in effect designating that YHVH was their God. They were His servants. Certainly this is what Paul has in mind when he uses the same phrase (in Greek) that appears at the beginning of the Torah.
But now I see that all that Paul really says is that Yeshua is the lord of the ekklesia. This does not demand that Yeshua is YHVH. It acknowledges that Yeshua is the head of the assembly that worships YHVH. If we recognize that the Messiah is the authorized agent of YHVH, then we don’t have an implicit Trinitarian statement. We have a statement about the role of the Jewish Messiah. The use of kyrios does not require a Trinitarian explanation although Trinitarian proponents read it that way. The Trinitarian explanation is read into the statement, just as I once read it, but it doesn’t have to be. The problem is that in our time “Lord,” especially with the capital letter added by the translators, implies “God.” This is an equivocation on the actual meaning of the term. In fact, since Paul maintains that he never stopped being a Torah-observant Pharisee and a follower of the elders and traditions, it’s difficult to image that he used the term kyrios here for anything other than the Messiah as authorized agent and lord of the assembly."
A command does not have to accord what you insist it must be. I have already shown that Romans 10:13 is a command of the gospel preached by Paulof what Paul and this passage refers to praying to the Lord Jesus.
ReplyDeleteSimply asserting that 1 Corinthians 7:35 is not a comand to pray to Jesus while ignoring 1 Corinthians 7:5 is simply wishful thinking on your part. Chapter 7 primarily concerns itself with the worship of the Lord by married and single people.
You assert that 1 Corinthians 7:35 says nothing about praying, but even the Jehovah's Witnesss have shown it has to do with "prayer".
Our Kingdom Ministry: Serving "Without Distraction": Paul understood that singleness afforded him the opportunity to serve Jehovah “without distraction.” Likewise today, a single brother can reach out for Ministerial Training School, and a single person is generally freer to enter the pioneer work, learn another language, move to where the need is greater, serve at Bethel, or be available for other special privileges of service. He may have more time and opportunities to engage in deep personal study and meditation and to COMMUNE WITH JEHOVAH IN HEARTFELT PRAYER. The unmarried person usually has more time to give of himself in assisting others. All such activity is to one’s “personal advantage.”—1 Cor. 7:32-35; Acts 20:35. ("Make Room for It", April 2003, page 1, the capital letters are mine)
https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/202003122
You ask a question and then immediately affirm that it is faulty exegesis. That is a poor appraoch to understanding the Bible.
ReplyDeleteTo address your confusion you simply have to see the link between Psalm 145:18 and 2 Timothy 2:22. To 'call upon' YHWH in Psalm 145:18 and to 'call upon' the Lord (Jesus) is to offer prayer.
I don't know why that was so difficult to figure out.
FR,
ReplyDelete1) You get the act of ignoring mixed up with pointing out what's irrelevant. Yes, 1 Corinthians 7:5 talks about prayer, but it doesn't say the prayer should be directed to Jesus. 1 Corinthians 7:35 says nothing about prayer, but refers to Christian service.
2) You then misuse the quote from our KM, a misuse that a toddler could discern. The KM clearly is not urging prayer to Jesus.
3. A command works differently than an indicative statement. That's just how language works. "Open the window" is a command. "Jane opened the window" is not. See the Decalogue for more examples.
4) Psalm 145:18 is not about Jesus, but YHWH. The Lord of 2 Timothy 2:22 might be Jesus, but even if the same verb were applied to Jesus as applied to Jehovah, that does not make him God.
Trinitarians assert that calling on YHWH or Jesus constitutes prayer. However, theology drives this assertion more than philology does.
ReplyDeleteOne thing I notice about 1 Corinthians 1:2 is that Paul describes Christians "calling on the name of our Lord Jesus Christ," but he doesn't technically say, "calling upon the Lord Jesus Christ." However, 2 Timothy 2:22 does use such language. Yet one might say "invoking the Lord" for the Pastoral verse. But invoke doesn't necessarily mean prayer.
ReplyDeleteτῇ ἐκκλησίᾳ τοῦ θεοῦ τῇ οὔσῃ ἐν Κορίνθῳ, ἡγιασμένοις ἐν Χριστῷ Ἰησοῦ, κλητοῖς ἁγίοις, σὺν πᾶσιν τοῖς ἐπικαλουμένοις τὸ ὄνομα τοῦ κυρίου ἡμῶν Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ ἐν παντὶ τόπῳ αὐτῶν καὶ ἡμῶν·
I still think it's preferable to understand Jesus as high priest and intercessor rather than the proper recipient of our prayers. The command to approach Christ in prayer appears nowhere in the GNT, and he did not teach his disciples to offer prayer to him.
You can cling to something that is more preferable for yourself rather than what the words of the Bible actually mean.
ReplyDeleteMatthew 4:3 "...If you are a son of God, tell these stones to become loaves of bread.”
ReplyDeleteSurely the Devil would have referred to Jesus as God (not as a son of God) if that was in fact the case. But that is not what Satan says. And a plain reading of this verse and the rest of the NT bares this out.
The Son of God (Acts 9:20) is the proper recipient of prayer (Acts 9:21) which demonstrates He is God.
ReplyDeleteActs 9:20 has nothing to do with prayer to Jesus.
ReplyDeleteAlso Acts 9:21 has noting to do with praying to Jesus as God.
ReplyDeleteGood point. Those uttering the words recorded in Acts 9:21 opposed Saul of Tarsus (now the apostle Paul) and referenced a man. Moreover, they were hardly claiming that the disciples of Christ prayed to him. What a stretch to prove the deity of Christ.
ReplyDeleteActs 9:20-21
ReplyDelete(20) and immediately he began to proclaim Jesus in the synagogues, saying, “He is the Son of God.”
(21) All those hearing him continued to be amazed, and were saying, “Is this not he who in Jerusalem destroyed those who called on this name, and who had come here for the purpose of bringing them bound before the chief priests?”
The Son of God (v. 20) is YHWH (v. 21).
To 'call on the name of the Lord' (or similar expressions) refers to praying to Jesus as being YHWH (Romans 10:13).
https://www.openbible.info/labs/cross-references/search?q=Acts+9%3A20
ReplyDeletehttps://www.openbible.info/labs/cross-references/search?q=Acts+9%3A21
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rYlSc_6fe74&t=401s
ReplyDeletehttps://www.openbible.info/labs/cross-references/search?q=Romans+10%3A9
ReplyDeleteJesus is Lord (Romans 10:9) = Jesus is YHWH (Romans 10:13)
ReplyDeletehttps://www.openbible.info/labs/cross-references/search?q=Joel+2%3A32
ReplyDelete