Lactantius points out that God will destroy the wicked during the day of anger, wherein “torrents of blood shall flow,” and “the prince also of the demons himself, the author and contriver of evils, being bound with fiery chains, shall be imprisoned, that the world may receive peace, and the earth, harassed through so many years, may rest.”[1] Lactantius follows John’s Apocalypse closely here as he relates: “Therefore peace being made, and every evil suppressed, that righteous King and Conqueror will institute a great judgment on the earth respecting the living and the dead, and will deliver all the nations into subjection to the righteous who are alive, and will raise the righteous dead to eternal life, and will Himself reign with them on the earth, and will build the holy city, and this kingdom of the righteous shall be for a thousand years.”[2]
Moreover, Lactantius bases his apocalyptic vision, in part, on the OT prophets, who describe an age in which beasts will coexist peacefully with one another and humans (Epitome 72). We read: “The beasts shall lay aside their ferocity and become mild, the wolf shall roam among the flocks without doing harm, the calf shall feed with the lion, the dove shall be united with the hawk, the serpent shall have no poison; no animal shall live by bloodshed” (ibid).
Nevertheless, as foretold in the Apocalypse of John, “the prince of the demons” will be loosed when the thousand years terminate.[3] He will cause multitudes of the nations to revolt against the people of God, “to storm the city of the saints” (ibid). However, they will not prevail since God “will shake the earth froth its foundations, and the cities shall be overthrown, and He Shall rain upon the wicked fire with brimstone and hail, and they shall be on fire, and slay each other. But the righteous shall for a little space be concealed under the earth, until the destruction of the nations is accomplished, and after the third day they shall come forth, and see the plains covered with carcasses” (ibid).
[1] Epitome 72.
[2] Epitome 72.
[3] Lactantius contrasts Satan, “the prince of demons” with Christ “the prince of the angels” (DI 4.14.17). Here again, one discerns the influence of Jewish apocalyptic literature in the Divinae institutiones. The Testament of Simeon 2.7 designates ha Satan “the prince of deceit,” who was responsible for provoking Simeon to ruin his brother, Joseph. The Testament of Solomon 6.7 also uses the expression “prince of all the demons” when describing ha Satan.
50 comments:
Are you familiar with Preterism? IE: That all of prophecy was fulfilled in the first century and there is no end of the world?
I am familiar with preterism: very few people have told me they believe it, but I've encountered it at times.
I realize that the JWs are a "confessional" type of organization, but on the outside chance that you might have some license to depart from the JW position on this, I would strongly encourage you to check it out.
I am sure you are aware that the JWs do not have a great track record in regard to their eschatology, and the current "overlapping generations" has zero scriptural support. But everybody is a Preterist to some extent, because Matthew 24 is clearly predicting the destruction of the Temple. The leap is just this... that all prophecy was fulfilled in the first seventy years of the first century.
I like to say that Revelation (and indeed all of the scriptures) are A Tale of Two Cities:
* the judgment/destruction of the Temple, Jerusalem, the sacrificial system, the obviation of the Torah, the destruction of the Jewish Sinai based polity, etc.
* the inauguration of the New Covenant and the Kingdom of God. The Kingdom is aka the Bride/Body of Christ, the New Jerusalem, the City on a Hill, the Light of the World, the True Vine, the Israel of God, the New Creation, the New Heavens and the New Earth, God's Building Not Made With Hands, etc.
And the current age - the Kingdom age - never ends. There is no "end of the world":
[Isaiah 9:7 NASB20] (7) There will be no end to the increase of [His] government or of peace On the throne of David and over his kingdom, To establish it and to uphold it with justice and righteousness From then on and forevermore. The zeal of the LORD of armies will accomplish this.
I hope you'll give it some consideration.
I try to consider what my interlocutors propose to me, even if I disagree. As mentioned earlier, I looked into preterism some years ago, and it just seemed off to me. While I agree that Matthew 24 and other parts of the Bible were fulfilled in the 1st century, Jehovah's Witnesses look at those as minor fulfillments of the prophecies like 1st century Christians viewed OT prophecies.
When you say "end of the world," I'd like to clarify something: we believe that the earth will always be here, but the current state of affairs (the evil age/system of things) will not be. See 1 John 2:15-17; 4:4; 5:19.
Some verses that indicate Satan's world will end are 2 Peter 3:1-13; 2 Thessalonians 1:6-9; Revelation 19:11-21. Moreover, Revelation 21-22 have not been fulfilled yet.
I'm always baffled when translators uniformly render κόσμος as "world."
https://logeion.uchicago.edu/%CE%BA%CF%8C%CF%83%CE%BC%CE%BF%CF%82
Jesus, of course, was predicting the end of the age of the Temple based Jewish theocracy:
[Matthew 24:3 NASB20] (3) And as He was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, "Tell us, when will these things happen, and what [will be] the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?"
Paul said that he and his generation were those upon who the end of the ages had come:
[1 Corinthians 10:11 ESV] (11) Now these things happened to them as an example, but they were written down for our instruction, on whom the end of the ages has come.
As did Hebrews:
[Hebrews 1:2 NASB20] (2) in these last days has spoken to us in [His] Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom He also made the world.
[Hebrews 8:13 NASB20] (13) When He said, "A new [covenant,]" He has made the first obsolete. But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is about to disappear.
[Hebrews 9:26 NKJV] (26) He then would have had to suffer often since the foundation of the world; but now, once at the end of the ages, He has appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself.
As did Peter, in Acts:
[Acts 2:16-17 NASB20] (16) but this is what has been spoken through the prophet Joel: (17) 'AND IT SHALL BE IN THE LAST DAYS,' God says, 'THAT I WILL POUR OUT MY SPIRIT ON ALL MANKIND; AND YOUR SONS AND YOUR DAUGHTERS WILL PROPHESY, AND YOUR YOUNG MEN WILL SEE VISIONS, AND YOUR OLD MEN WILL HAVE DREAMS;
And James:
[James 5:3 NASB20] (3) Your gold and your silver have corroded, and their corrosion will serve as a testimony against you and will consume your flesh like fire. It is in the last days that you have stored up your treasure!
And certainly Christ:
[Matthew 23:36 NASB20] (36) "Truly I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation.
[Matthew 24:34 NASB20] (34) "Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place.
[Mark 8:12 NASB20] (12) Sighing deeply in His spirit, He said, "Why does this generation demand a sign? Truly I say to you, no sign will be given to this generation!"
[Mark 13:30 NASB20] (30) "Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place.
[Luke 11:29-30, 32, 50-51 NASB20] (29) Now as the crowds were increasing, He began to say, "This generation is a wicked generation; it demands a sign, and [so] no sign will be given to it except the sign of Jonah. (30) "For just as Jonah became a sign to the Ninevites, so will the Son of Man be to this generation. ... (32) "The men of Nineveh will stand up with this generation at the judgment and condemn it, because they repented at the preaching of Jonah; and behold, [something] greater than Jonah is here. ... (50) so that the blood of all the prophets, shed since the foundation of the world, may be charged against this generation, (51) from the blood of Abel to the blood of Zechariah, who was killed between the altar and the house [of God;] yes, I tell you, it shall be charged against this generation.'
[Luke 17:25 NASB20] (25) "But first He must suffer many things and be rejected by this generation.
[Luke 21:32 NASB20] (32) "Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all things take place.
But the Kingdom age has no end! This is the "world without end."
[Daniel 7:14 NIV] (14) He was given authority, glory and sovereign power; all nations and peoples of every language worshiped him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion that will not pass away, and his kingdom is one that will never be destroyed.
The Kingdom of God is the Body/Bride of Christ aka the New Jerusalem aka the Israel of God, etc.
So what about the wicked? They are "the dogs outside" of the Body of Christ:
[Revelation 22:15 NIV] (15) Outside are the dogs, those who practice magic arts, the sexually immoral, the murderers, the idolaters and everyone who loves and practices falsehood.
It is to them that the City on a Hill serves as the Light of the World and Priests, not to each other.
This is why there are 12 gates to the city.. so that sinners can wash their robed and enter the City and partake of the Trees of Life that are inside the City.
Preterism is the Key that unlocks the mysteries of the Kingdom:
[Mark 4:13 NIV] (13) Then Jesus said to them, "Don't you understand this parable? How then will you understand any parable?
Granted, translations render kosmos with "world," but that term has numerous meanings/connotations in English. World is not wrong, but it's equivocal as a translation.
Matthew 24:3 and 1 Corinthians 10:11 might have experienced some type of fulfillment in the 1st century, but that's one level of fulfillment: Christ spoke about the "end of the world/age" and his parousia. I guess you think his parousia happened in the 1st century too.
I've admitted that the 1st century was the last days in a minor way, but that is no indication the prophecies were exhaustively fulfilled then. See 2 Timothy 3:1-5 and read 2 Thessalonians 2:1-11.
For us, the kingdom of God is more than an age: it's God's way or ruling--his government that will never end. See the verse you quoted, Isaiah 9:6-7. Guess who is the chief member of God's kingdom? Christ himself, and he along with his bride have not brought about
Revelation 22:1-3 yet.
According to Revelation, what will happen to those figurative dogs? Will they not experience the symbolic lake of fire, which has not been fulfilled yet either.
There has not yet been a full inbreaking of God's kingdom yet. See Daniel 2:44 which has yet to be consummated.
Lots of questions remain unanswered from the preterist stance. Do you believe 2 Thessalonians 1:6-9, Revelation 19:11-21 or 2 Peter 3:1-13 have been fulfilled? What about Revelation 20:1-15?
Re: 2 Thess 1:
These were only make sense if they were to occur in their own lifetime!:
[2 Thessalonians 1:6-10 NIV] (6) God is just: He will pay back trouble to those who trouble you (7) and give relief to you who are troubled, and to us as well. This will happen when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven in blazing fire with his powerful angels. (8) He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. (9) They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might (10) on the day he comes to be glorified in his holy people and to be marveled at among all those who have believed. This includes you, because you believed our testimony to you.
[Matthew 21:40-45 NIV] (40) "Therefore, when the owner of the vineyard comes, what will he do to those tenants?" (41) "He will bring those wretches to a wretched end," they replied, "and he will rent the vineyard to other tenants, who will give him his share of the crop at harvest time." (42) Jesus said to them, "Have you never read in the Scriptures: " 'The stone the builders rejected has become the cornerstone; the Lord has done this, and it is marvelous in our eyes'? (43) "Therefore I tell you that the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a people who will produce its fruit. (44) Anyone who falls on this stone will be broken to pieces; anyone on whom it falls will be crushed." (45) When the chief priests and the Pharisees heard Jesus' parables, they knew he was talking about them.
The Beast making fire come down from heaven was the army of Titus and their flaming arrows. The Lake of Fire was the fire that consumed Jerusalem. The ones not consumed in the lake of fire were the Christians, and like Lot (and unlike his wife) fled Jerusalem and headed for the hills as soon as they saw the city being surrounded by the Roman armies:
[Luke 21:20-24 NLT] (20) "And when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then you will know that the time of its destruction has arrived. (21) Then those in Judea must flee to the hills. Those in Jerusalem must get out, and those out in the country should not return to the city. (22) For those will be days of God's vengeance, and the prophetic words of the Scriptures will be fulfilled. (23) How terrible it will be for pregnant women and for nursing mothers in those days. For there will be disaster in the land and great anger against this people. (24) They will be killed by the sword or sent away as captives to all the nations of the world. And Jerusalem will be trampled down by the Gentiles until the period of the Gentiles comes to an end.
Thanks for offering the preterist perspective. I think you have to ignore most of what the Thessalonians passage states in order to believe it's already been fulfilled. Paul spoke of certain Christians sleeping until the Lord's parousia (1 Thessalonians 4:13-18), a point hard to understand if the parousia was already happening or would soon occur. However, those Christians would awaken from the sleep of death, and any others who died in Christ would have the same fate. Therefore, the words of 2 Thessalonians could have a future fulfillment. Furthermore, the passage speaks of the finality of judgment and "everlasting destruction" from before the Lord and from the glory of his might. That did not happen in the first century.
It's the same with the lake of fire in Revelation: they will be tormented forever and ever. Not that we believe in literal torment, but their punishment (not punishing) will certainly be forever. Later, John declares that death will be no more, neither mourning nor outcry nor pain, things that Christians still await.
I know that JWs beach that when you, Edgar Foster, closes your eyes for the last time, that you will sleep in "the common grave" until the "presence" of the LORD at the final judgment of mankind, or at least that is how I understand the teaching. However, we are told in scripture that Jesus brought a dramatic change in the first century:
[2 Timothy 1:10 NIV] (10) but it has now been revealed through the appearing of our Savior, Christ Jesus, who has destroyed death and has brought life and immortality to light through the gospel.
Ecclesiastes no longer describes the experience of the saints. What was true for the saints before Christ is no longer true today:
[John 5:24 NKJV] (24) "Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life.
[Revelation 21:4 NIV] (4) 'He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death' or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away."
The Old Creation and the Old Heavens and Earth are no more, for those in Christ:
[2 Corinthians 5:16-17 NKJV] (16) Therefore, from now on, we regard no one according to the flesh. Even though we have known Christ according to the flesh, yet now we know [Him thus] no longer. (17) Therefore, if anyone [is] in Christ, [he is] a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new.
Paul said it succinctly:
[1 Corinthians 15:51 NKJV] (51) Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed--
Death has no more "sting." Christ has triumphed over Hadean death.
Death and Hades were destroyed in the Lake of Fire when the Temple was burned up, and with it the sacrificial system and the relevance of the Torah:
[1 Corinthians 15:53-58 NKJV] (53) For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal [must] put on immortality. (54) So when this corruptible has put on incorruption, and this mortal has put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written: "Death is swallowed up in victory." (55) "O Death, where [is] your sting? O Hades, where [is] your victory?" (56) The sting of death [is] sin, and the strength of sin [is] the law. (57) But thanks [be] to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ. (58) Therefore, my beloved brethren, be steadfast, immovable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, knowing that your labor is not in vain in the Lord.
You, sir, are immortal. When you close your eyes for the last time, you will immediately open them in your eternal reward. So there is no reason for you to weep like other men, who have no such hope.
I pray, as Paul did, that you would see the exceeding greatness of the power of Christ's resurrection:
[Ephesians 1:15-23 NKJV] (15) Therefore I also, after I heard of your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, (16) do not cease to give thanks for you, making mention of you in my prayers: (17) that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give to you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of Him, (18) the eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that you may know what is the hope of His calling, what are the riches of the glory of His inheritance in the saints, (19) and what [is] the exceeding greatness of His power toward us who believe, according to the working of His mighty power (20) which He worked in Christ when He raised Him from the dead and seated [Him] at His right hand in the heavenly [places], (21) far above all principality and power and might and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this age but also in that which is to come. (22) And He put all [things] under His feet, and gave Him [to be] head over all [things] to the church, (23) which is His body, the fullness of Him who fills all in all.
The unbelieving are in torment in this age and in every age, while those who are in Christ, hope all things.
You are close in describing JW teaching, but some things could be adjusted in your explanation. Either way, we have to exegete the Bible, and look to Jehovah for understanding. It takes digging to bring forth "gems" of wisdom from God's Word. I don't say this to be mean, condesending or harsh, but I believe these words are demonstrated by Scripture.
For instance, I agree with you that Jesus destroyed death and brought life and immortality to light, but does that mean Ecclesiastes no longer applies or other OT texts which speak of the dead sleeping? What about the NT verses which refer to the dead sleeping, including 1 Thess. 4:13-18?
Granted, 1 John 3:8 reads (ESV): "Whoever makes a practice of sinning is of the devil, for the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the works of the devil."
Yet Hebrews 2:8-9 teaches that "Now in putting everything in subjection to him, he left nothing outside his control. At present, we do not yet see everything in subjection to him. But we see him who for a little while was made lower than the angels, namely Jesus, crowned with glory and honor because of the suffering of death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone."
These thoughts were likely penned in the 60s of the first century; yet the writer exclaimed that everything was not yet under the control of Jesus, even after he tasted death.
Jesus' words in John 5:24 are thus paradoxical; when reading such verses, we must distinguish between spiritual death and physical death. See Ephesians 2:1-3. Compare John 5:28-29. John was probably written near the end of the 1st century.
Has death, mourning, and crying been wiped out? Are these things no more in view of the untold suffering we're experiencing with Covid, cancer, malaria, etc?
Revelation says that the lake of fire is/signifies the "second death." Inveterate sinners will be consigned there. See Revelation 21:8: sorry, but it's a stretch to use the temple destruction to explain the lake of fire. Research how the "lake of fire" or similar language was used in ancient Judaism. And note the language in Revelation that's marked by estai ("will be").
How does your understanding of 1 Cor. 15:51ff harmonize with 2 Cor. 5:1-5? Firstly, notice when the mortal puts on the mortal. It's not during this life. Additionally, 2 Cor 5:1-5 gives this promise:
For we know that if the tent that is our earthly home is destroyed, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. For in this tent we groan, longing to put on our heavenly dwelling, if indeed by putting it on we may not be found naked. For while we are still in this tent, we groan, being burdened—not that we would be unclothed, but that we would be further clothed, so that what is mortal may be swallowed up by life. He who has prepared us for this very thing is God, who has given us the Spirit as a guarantee.
These verses make it clear that Christians are not immortal until they're resurrected after death. In this life, we're all mortal, but Paul and Peter would be clothed with immortality at their resurrection. Compare 1 John 3:1-3.
Going back to 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18, Paul spoke of weeping, but not as the rest do. Why did he and others weep? Because their friends were sleeping in death until the parousia. That is what he wrote: when Stephen was stoned to death, what happened to him?
Yes, the unbelieving are tormented now, but is that the torment in Revelation 20:10?
Paul said that we shall not all sleep. But you say that all must sleep. You then argue against a straw man in that it is not I who is arguing that the end of sleep was upon the resurrection. It is after the day of judgment, c. 70 AD/CE. It is then that God puts his enemies under Christ's feet and death is the final, not the first enemy to be destroyed. It is in 70 AD/CE that Christ returned and caused the Old Covenant to disappear:
[1 Corinthians 15:20-26 NASB20] (20) But the fact is, Christ has been raised from the dead, the first fruits of those who are asleep. (21) For since by a man death [came,] by a man also [came] the resurrection of the dead. (22) For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive. (23) But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, after that those who are Christ's at His coming, (24) then [comes] the end, when He hands over the kingdom to [our] God and Father, when He has abolished all rule and all authority and power. (25) For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet. (26) The last enemy that will be abolished is death.
[Hebrews 8:13 NASB20] (13) When He said, "A new [covenant,]" He has made the first obsolete. But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is about to disappear.
[1 Corinthians 15:51-57 NASB20] (51) Behold, I am telling you a mystery; we will not all sleep, but we will all be changed, (52) in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. (53) For this perishable must put on the imperishable, and this mortal [must] put on immortality. (54) But when this perishable puts on the imperishable, and this mortal puts on immortality, then will come about the saying that is written: "DEATH HAS BEEN SWALLOWED UP in victory. (55) "WHERE, O DEATH, IS YOUR VICTORY? WHERE, O DEATH, IS YOUR STING?" (56) The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the Law; (57) but thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.
Do you believe, that after the destruction of the Temple, Jerusalem and the Jewish Sinai covenant based theocracy, we shall "all sleep"?
Alas, I don't think you are actually free to move from JW dogma.
Yes, the torment of Revelation 20:10 speaks of endless generations of the wicked and unbelieving being the dogs outside, never experiencing peace:
[Hebrews 10:26-27 NKJV] (26) For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, (27) but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries.
This explains the 2 Peter 3:10 passage:
https://www.quora.com/Is-II-Peter-3-10-proof-that-the-rapture-and-the-tribulation-will-not-occur/answer/Bill-Ross-22
More importantly, the 70th seven of Daniel either followed directly on the heels of the 69th week, or it absurd to call it the 70th seven! The whole organizing principle is a consecutive 490 years. And Jesus told a parable that forbids arbitrarily delaying the 70th week by thousands of years:
[Luke 21:29-32 NKJV] (29) Then He spoke to them a parable: "Look at the fig tree, and all the trees. (30) "When they are already budding, you see and know for yourselves that summer is now near. (31) "So you also, when you see these things happening, know that the kingdom of God is near. (32) "Assuredly, I say to you, this generation will by no means pass away till all things take place.
All the futurists resort to bizarre manipulations such as the absurd "overlapping generations" and huge gaps in Daniels sevens, etc. to accommodate their always wrong timetables.
Prophetic language is often obscure and perhaps hyperbolic but it all makes sense only from a first century fulfillment.
[Acts 3:24 NKJV] (24) "Yes, and all the prophets, from Samuel and those who follow, as many as have spoken, have also foretold these days.
[Luke 2:25-32 NKJV] (25) And behold, there was a man in Jerusalem whose name [was] Simeon, and this man [was] just and devout, waiting for the Consolation of Israel, and the Holy Spirit was upon him. (26) And it had been revealed to him by the Holy Spirit that he would not see death before he had seen the Lord's Christ. (27) So he came by the Spirit into the temple. And when the parents brought in the Child Jesus, to do for Him according to the custom of the law, (28) he took Him up in his arms and blessed God and said: (29) "Lord, now You are letting Your servant depart in peace, According to Your word; (30) For my eyes have seen Your salvation (31) Which You have prepared before the face of all peoples, (32) A light to [bring] revelation to the Gentiles, And the glory of Your people Israel."
[Mark 1:15 NKJV] (15) and saying, "The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand. Repent, and believe in the gospel."
[Revelation 22:20 NKJV] (20) He who testifies to these things says, "Surely I am coming quickly." Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus!
[Matthew 23:36 NKJV] (36) "Assuredly, I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation.
[Luke 21:20-24 NKJV] (20) "But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation is near. (21) "Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those who are in the midst of her depart, and let not those who are in the country enter her. (22) "For these are the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled. (23) "But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! For there will be great distress in the land and wrath upon this people. (24) "And they will fall by the edge of the sword, and be led away captive into all nations. And Jerusalem will be trampled by Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.
[1 Peter 4:17 NKJV] (17) For the time [has come] for judgment to begin at the house of God; and if [it begins] with us first, what will [be] the end of those who do not obey the gospel of God?
[1 John 2:18 NKJV] (18) Little children, it is the last hour; and as you have heard that the Antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come, by which we know that it is the last hour.
First of all, my friend, you engage in eisegesis by reading 70 CE into 1 Corinthians 15. You then accuse me of contradicting Paul's words about all not sleeping in death when that's not what I said, and it's not what JWs believe. You also run rough shod over much of what Paul wrote in order to prop up your preterism, but there is much left unexplained. Finally, my resistance to your ideas is not blind adherence to dogma, but grammar and other factors. Your approach begins with a priori assumptions and then you seek confirmation of your prior assumptions. And for the record, I do read and contemplate other sources besides ours, but at the same time, I'm proud to be a Witness.
1 Cor 15 associates the "swallowing up" of death with removal of the stinger from the "wasp" of death, which is sin, by the breaking of the power of Torah:
[1 Corinthians 15:54-57 NASB20] (54) But when this perishable puts on the imperishable, and this mortal puts on immortality, then will come about the saying that is written: "DEATH HAS BEEN SWALLOWED UP in victory. (55) "WHERE, O DEATH, IS YOUR VICTORY? WHERE, O DEATH, IS YOUR STING?" (56) The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the Law; (57) but thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.
This is all an allusion to the work of the Messiah in Jerusalem:
[Isaiah 25:7-9 NASB20] (7) And on this mountain He will destroy the covering which is over all peoples, The veil which is stretched over all nations. (8) He will swallow up death for all time, And the Lord GOD will wipe tears away from all faces, And He will remove the disgrace of His people from all the earth; For the LORD has spoken. (9) And it will be said on that day, "Behold, this is our God for whom we have waited that He might save us. This is the LORD for whom we have waited; Let's rejoice and be glad in His salvation."
What was that "covering over all people"? The shadow of death.
[Hebrews 2:14-15 NASB20] (14) Therefore, since the children share in flesh and blood, He Himself likewise also partook of the same, so that through death He might destroy the one who has the power of death, that is, the devil, (15) and free those who through fear of death were subject to slavery all their lives.
However, until the resurrection of the dead in Christ at his coming in 70 AD/CE, the emptying of Hadeas, and the end of "sleep," Hadean death remained. Paul associates the "swallowing up death in victory" with the end of sleeping, and thus the end of death, which occurred with the destruction of the Temple:
[1 Corinthians 15:51-57 NASB20] (51) Behold, I am telling you a mystery; we will not all sleep, but we will all be changed, (52) in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. (53) For this perishable must put on the imperishable, and this mortal [must] put on immortality. (54) But when this perishable puts on the imperishable, and this mortal puts on immortality, then will come about the saying that is written: "DEATH HAS BEEN SWALLOWED UP in victory. (55) "WHERE, O DEATH, IS YOUR VICTORY? WHERE, O DEATH, IS YOUR STING?" (56) The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the Law; (57) but thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.
It was then he crushed the Satan under the feet of the Israel of God:
[Romans 16:20 NASB20] (20) The God of peace will soon crush Satan under your feet. The grace of our Lord Jesus be with you.
[John 12:31 NASB20] (31) "Now judgment is [upon] this world; now the ruler of this world will be cast out.
It was the end of the 490 years and the seventy times seven of Daniel:
[Daniel 9:24 NASB20] (24) "Seventy weeks have been decreed for your people and your holy city, to finish the wrongdoing, to make an end of sin, to make atonement for guilt, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy, and to anoint the Most Holy Place.
The "anointing of the Most Holy Place" refers to the establishment of the Kingdom of God aka the Bride/Body of Christ, the Temple Not Made With Hands, the New Jerusalem, etc.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wTnq6I3vUbU&t=23s
1 Cor 15 is NOT about overlapping generations in the 21st century but about Jesus' own generation in the first century. The New Jerusalem is a metaphor for the New Covenant people of God:
[Galatians 4:24-26 NLT] (24) These two women serve as an illustration of God's two covenants. The first woman, Hagar, represents Mount Sinai where people received the law that enslaved them. (25) And now Jerusalem is just like Mount Sinai in Arabia, because she and her children live in slavery to the law. (26) But the other woman, Sarah, represents the heavenly Jerusalem. She is the free woman, and she is our mother.
As to your lack of freedom... Do you doubt that if you were to move away from the JW eschatology of a "paradise earth" and "overlapping generations" etc. that you would quickly become a persona non grata to your organization? You'd become "somebody that they used to know":
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8UVNT4wvIGY
That's a fact. And I have not yet encountered an exception to this rule in all my dealings with JWs.
So when do JWs teach that Hadean sleep gets swallowed up in victory?
You assume that Christ's parousia (his presence) began in 70 CE: that's an assumption and not a fact. Death still remains: deny the obvious if you like, but even the early Christians spoke about their friends falling asleep in death as I've already shown. That doesn't mean that all would sleep in death but Paul clearly spoke of those dead in Christ (in union with Christ).
Bill, you assert that 1 Corinthians 15:51ff was fulfilled in 70 CE: an assertion is not proof or fact. Jesus' death provided the basis to end death, but God has not wiped out death, mourning or pain just yet, but he will one day.
Nothing--nothing--within the contexts of Romans 16:20 or John 12:31 connects 70 CE with those verses. This is what I mean by starting with an assumption, ignoring context, then making an assertion. John 12:31 was fulfilled before 70 CE when the Messiah surrendered his life.
Expositor's GT on John 12:31: "It was a trial not so much of Him as of the world: νῦν κρίσις ἐστὶ τοῦ κόσμου τούτου. In the events of the next few days the world was to be judged by its treatment of Jesus. Cf. John 3:18, John 5:27."
The kingdom of God includes, but is not exhausted by the bride of Christ. Besides Isaiah 9:6-7, see Luke 17:20-21: "the kingdom of God is in your midst."
We believe that New Jerusalem is the bride of Christ: that is what Revelation states in 21:9, 10. No disagreement there, but nothing contextually ties 1 Corinthians 15 to 70 CE. And speaking of problems for preterism, explain how "all the tribes of the earth" lamented in 70 CE when they saw the Son of Man coming on a cloud. The verse indicates that judgment would be universal rather than localized.
I don't think I have a lack of freedom, but there is a difference between freedom of the world and true Christian freedom. The early Christians (in the 1st century) adhered to apostolic teaching. Paul wrote that if they were moved from that teaching, they would be separated from Christ. I'm trying to follow the pattern set by those early followers of Jesus, who rejected independence and rebellion against divine authority.
The situation is not as pernicious as you depict above. However, to answer your last question, JWs believe that mankind has two destinies. For those who inherit heavenly life, death is swallowed up at the resurrection to heavenly life; for those who will live forever on earth, death will ultimately be overcome at the end of Christ's millennial reign, when he truly hands over the kingdom to his Father so that God will become all in all.
I think Gregory K. Beale makes some perceptive remarks about preterism in his Revelation commentary. He says preterism ignores the universal aspect of judgment that both Revelation and Daniel espouse.
Quite frankly, Bill, you keep harping on overlapping generations, but that explanation plays a somewhat minor role in JW eschatology, and it could one day be adjusted. Those kind of things are not set in stone but they represent current Witness teaching. We try to make adjustments as more understanding is shed on the Bible.
Many people don't realize that JWs are not prohibited from asking questions and corresponding with headquarters. Don't buy into the anti-JW propaganda.
One more thing to consider is that Scripture has different senses and applications: see the work by Henri De Lubac at https://www.eerdmans.com/Products/4145/medieval-exegesis-volume-1.aspx
παρουσία can be used of someone's presence, but since Jesus was not present, and because he is a King and dignitary, I think it is better to understand his παρουσία to refer to his arrival:
② arrival as the first stage in presence, coming, advent (Soph., El. 1104; Eur., Alc. 209; Thu. 1, 128, 5. Elsewh. mostly in later wr.: Polyb. 22, 10, 14; Demetr.: 722 Fgm. 11, 18 Jac.; Diod S 15, 32, 2; 19, 64, 6; Dionys. Hal. 1, 45, 4; ins, pap; Jdth 10:18; 2 Macc 8:12; 15:21; 3 Macc 3:17; TestAbr A 2 p. 78, 26 [Stone p. 4]; Jos., Bell. 4, 345, Vi. 90; Tat. 39, 3).
Arndt, W., Danker, F. W., Bauer, W., & Gingrich, F. W. (2000). A Greek-English lexicon of the New Testament and other early Christian literature (3rd ed., p. 780). Chicago: University of Chicago Press.
He said over and over that he was "coming in glory" etc:
[Matthew 24:27 NASB20] (27) "For just as the lightning comes from the east and flashes as far as the west, so will the coming of the Son of Man be.
It is used in 2 Maccabees 8 to refer to the arrival of an army:
2 Maccabees 8:12 But it became known to Judas concerning the plan of Nicanor and, upon sharing with those who were with him regarding the arrival of the army,
Brannan, R., Penner, K. M., Loken, I., Aubrey, M., & Hoogendyk, I. (Eds.). (2012). The Lexham English Septuagint (2 Mac 8:12). Bellingham, WA: Lexham Press.
Please see: https://hermeneutics.stackexchange.com/a/29271/20832
Jesus arrived in 70 AD/CE and brought his reward:
[Matthew 24:34 NASB20] (34) "Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place.
[Revelation 22:12 NASB20] (12) "Behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward [is] with Me, to reward each one as his work deserves.
Notice he doesn't say, "Overlapping generations thousands of years from now" but rather "THIS generation" and "quickly." It is a sheer mockery of his emphatic time statements to put cast them as the JWs do.
You wrote: "And speaking of problems for preterism, explain how "all the tribes of the earth" lamented in 70 CE when they saw the Son of Man coming on a cloud. The verse indicates that judgment would be universal rather than localized."
Please note that Revelation 1:7 is an allusion:
[Revelation 1:7 NASB20] (7) BEHOLD, HE IS COMING WITH THE CLOUDS, and every eye will see Him, even those who pierced Him; and all the tribes of the earth will mourn over Him. So it is to be. Amen.
His "coming with the clouds" refers to this:
[Daniel 7:13-14 NASB20] (13) "I kept looking in the night visions, And behold, with the clouds of heaven One like a son of man was coming, And He came up to the Ancient of Days And was presented before Him. (14) "And to Him was given dominion, Honor, and a kingdom, So that all the peoples, nations, and [populations of all] languages Might serve Him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion Which will not pass away; And His kingdom is one Which will not be destroyed.
[Luke 19:11-12 NASB20] (11) Now while they were listening to these things, [Jesus] went on to tell a parable, because He was near Jerusalem and they thought that the kingdom of God was going to appear immediately. (12) So He said, "A nobleman went to a distant country to receive a kingdom for himself, and [then] to return.
He received that kingdom and authority in the first century:
[Matthew 16:28 NASB20] (28) "Truly I say to you, there are some of those who are standing here who will not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom."
[Mark 1:15 NASB20] (15) and saying, "The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand; repent and believe in the gospel."
[Mark 9:1 NASB20] (1) And Jesus was saying to them, "Truly I say to you, there are some of those who are standing here who will not taste death until they see the kingdom of God when it has come with power."
[Luke 9:27 NASB20] (27) "But I say to you truthfully, there are some of those standing here who will not taste death until they see the kingdom of God."
There is no wiggle room here.
And getting back to Revelation 1:7, the mourning is an allusion to this, which clearly sets the context in "the land" and not "the planet Earth":
[Zechariah 12:10 NKJV] (10) "And I will pour on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem the Spirit of grace and supplication; then they will look on Me whom they pierced. Yes, they will mourn for Him as one mourns for [his] only [son], and grieve for Him as one grieves for a firstborn.
See also this passage, which links the "cry to the mountains" to the horrific anguish of the Jews in the war with Rome:
[Luke 23:27-31 NKJV] (27) And a great multitude of the people followed Him, and women who also mourned and lamented Him. (28) But Jesus, turning to them, said, "Daughters of Jerusalem, do not weep for Me, but weep for yourselves and for your children. (29) "For indeed the days are coming in which they will say, 'Blessed [are] the barren, wombs that never bore, and breasts which never nursed!' (30) "Then they will begin 'to say to the mountains, "Fall on us!" and to the hills, "Cover us!" ' (31) "For if they do these things in the green wood, what will be done in the dry?"
[Revelation 6:15-17 NKJV] (15) And the kings of the earth [IE: of the promised land], the great men, the rich men, the commanders, the mighty men, every slave and every free man, hid themselves in the caves and in the rocks of the mountains, (16) and said to the mountains and rocks, "Fall on us and hide us from the face of Him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! (17) "For the great day of His wrath has come, and who is able to stand?"
Remember called Jerusalem to repentance:
[Luke 3:7 NKJV] (7) Then he said to the multitudes that came out to be baptized by him, "Brood of vipers! Who warned you to flee from the wrath to come?
The Messiah already had his harvest implements in his hands, about to strike at the root - in the first century:
[Matthew 3:10 NKJV] (10) "And even now the ax is laid to the root of the trees. Therefore every tree which does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.
This immediacy is not referring to thousands of year from then, and still future to us. That's a nonsense notion. Again, it simply "covers the ears" to resiste the emphatic warning of the prophet.
The judgment was not "universal" but rather specific to his people, the Jews:
[Amos 3:2 NKJV] (2) "You only have I known of all the families of the earth; Therefore I will punish you for all your iniquities."
[Deuteronomy 32:36 NKJV] (36) "For the LORD will judge His people And have compassion on His servants, When He sees that [their] power is gone, And [there is] no one
[remaining], bond or free.
[Psalm 50:4 NKJV] (4) He shall call to the heavens from above, And to the earth, that He may judge His people:
[Psalm 135:14 NKJV] (14) For the LORD will judge His people, And He will have compassion on His servants.
[Hebrews 10:30 NKJV] (30) For we know Him who said, "Vengeance is Mine, I will repay," says the Lord. And again, "The LORD will judge His people."
Matthew 24:30 is part of the prophecy that you said was (completely) fulfilled in the 1st century: "Then will appear in heaven the sign of the Son of Man, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory."
You quoted Revelation 1:7 instead, but I can make the same point from either verse. "All the tribes of the earth" didn't reside in 1st century Jerusalem. Furthermore, there is no indication that Christ came riding on a cloud in the 1st century.
Here's another problem: Revelation was probably written after 70 CE, not before. That would throw another wrinkle in preterism.
I would agree that Matthew 24:30; Revelation 1:7 are connected with Daniel 7:13-14, but Daniel does not mention the earthly tribes beating themselves in lamentation at the Son of Man's coming, which is not the same word as parousia. But there is not an exact parallel between Daniel and the texts you adduced.
Luke 19:11-12 actually disproves your argument: it indicates that the Son of Man would go away to receive kingly authority and it would be some time before he returned.
You continue to jump the gun and read ideas into texts: I don't have time to refute everything you've written, but Matthew 16:28 is speaking about the Transfiguration, not his parousia. See the immediate context and 2 Peter 1:16-18.
Hebrews 10:12-13: "But when Christ had offered for all time a single sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God, waiting from that time until his enemies should be made a footstool for his feet."
Sounds like his coronation and the enemies being made his footstool were yet future.
See Hebrews 1:3-6.
Per Zechariah 12:10, there was mourning in Jerusalem; that is part of the fulfillment but not all. Matthew 24:30 has πᾶσαι αἱ φυλαὶ τῆς γῆς
Compare Genesis 12:3 (LXX): καὶ εὐλογήσω τοὺς εὐλογοῦντάς σε καὶ τοὺς καταρωμένους σε καταράσομαι καὶ ἐνευλογηθήσονται ἐν σοὶ πᾶσαι αἱ φυλαὶ τῆς γῆς
Not limited to the "land"
Revelation 16:14-16 could be read as universal judgment too: all the kings of earth gather together.
I think you continue to ignore the various senses of Scripture that De Lubac analyzed.
Regarding Christ's parousia, see Matthew 24:36-39.
1 John was written after 70 CE:
1 John 2:28: And now, dear children, continue in him, so that when he appears we may be confident and unashamed before him at his coming.
1 John 3:2: Dear friends, now we are children of God, and what we will be has not yet been made known. But we know that when Christ appears, we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is.
The letter is difficult to date with precision, but factors such as (1) evidence from early Christian writers (Irenaeus and Clement of Alexandria), (2) the early form of Gnosticism reflected in the denunciations of the letter and (3) indications of the advanced age of John suggest the end of the first century. Since the author of 1 John seems to build on concepts and themes found in the fourth Gospel (see 1Jn 2:7–11), it is reasonable to date the letter somewhere between a.d. 85 and 95, after the writing of the Gospel, which may have been written c. 85 (see Introduction to John: Date).
https://www.biblica.com/resources/scholar-notes/niv-study-bible/intro-to-1-john/
You wrote: ..."All the tribes of the earth" didn't reside in 1st century Jerusalem. Furthermore, there is no indication that Christ came riding on a cloud in the 1st century...
Notice the usage of "tribes" in scripture is exclusively referring to Israel:
https://www.blueletterbible.org/search/search.cfm?Criteria=all+the+tribes&t=NKJV#s=s_primary_0_1
The gentiles are the "nations."
And I provided the allusion to Zechariah where the context is clearly Israel.
It is special pleading to have "tribes" refer to the gentiles/nations.
And the juxtaposition of "coming with clouds" and "the Son of Man" and "sign will appear in heaven" is a clear reference to Daniel. To take it any other way is to ignore the crystal clear intertextuality.
You're grabbing at straws.
You wrote: "Here's another problem: Revelation was probably written after 70 CE, not before. That would throw another wrinkle in preterism."
John claims to have an interaction with an angel measuring the still-standing Temple, so ostensibly it is before 70 AD/CE. In addition, he bears witness, prophetically, which is according to the words of Jesus "what is about to happen." He refers to Secret Babylon as Jerusalem:
https://www.quora.com/Who-is-the-Whore-of-Babylon/answer/Bill-Ross-22
So it is impious and unbelieving to think he is writing prophecy after the fact.
And tangential, I disagree with the scholars and think the fourth gospel was written first.
Now if you argue that 1 John was written after 70 AD/CE you open a Pandora's box of confusion. He says he is writing at the last hour. IE: Right as the antichrists that Christ predicted were appearing:
[Matthew 24:9-12 NKJV] (9) "Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and kill you, and you will be hated by all nations for My name's sake. (10) "And then many will be offended, will betray one another, and will hate one another. (11) "Then many false prophets will rise up and deceive many. (12) "And because lawlessness will abound, the love of many will grow cold.
[Revelation 20:7-9 NLT] (7) When the thousand years come to an end, Satan will be let out of his prison. (8) He will go out to deceive the nations--called Gog and Magog--in every corner of the earth. He will gather them together for battle--a mighty army, as numberless as sand along the seashore. (9) And I saw them as they went up on the broad plain of the earth and surrounded God's people and the beloved city. But fire from heaven came down on the attacking armies and consumed them.
[2 Thessalonians 2:1-12 KJV] (1) Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and [by] our gathering together unto him, (2) That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. (3) Let no man deceive you by any means: for [that day shall not come], except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; (4) Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. (5) Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things? (6) And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. (7) For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth [will let], until he be taken out of the way. (8) And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: (9) [Even him], whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, (10) And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. (11) And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: (12) That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
I explain this all here:
https://www.quora.com/Will-the-twelve-apostles-help-to-rule-in-the-new-Jerusalem-in-the-one-thousand-year-reign-of-Christ/answer/Bill-Ross-22
Regarding Genesis 12:3 LXX...
This was the initial blessing on Abraham. It was, I believe, speaking of the various tribes of the one great nation. It isn't until later that the blessing was expanded to the nations, perhaps after his being tested with offering Isaac. It deserves more study.
Acts uses the word "families" but look how he uses it to tell the Jews that this was about them:
[Acts 3:25-26 NLT] (25) You are the children of those prophets, and you are included in the covenant God promised to your ancestors. For God said to Abraham, 'Through your descendants all the families on earth will be blessed.' (26) When God raised up his servant, Jesus, he sent him first to you people of Israel, to bless you by turning each of you back from your sinful ways."
It wasn't until Acts 10 that Peter gets a clue about the inclusion of the gentiles/nations.
I'm glad you're willing to grant the need for further study of Genesis 12:3, and I'm sure you know how Paul applied this verse. Moreover, while Peter spoke those words to the Jews in Acts 3:25-26, he still pointed out that the "families on earth" would be blessed through Abraham's "seed" (offspring). In Galatians 3:16, 29, Paul identified that seed as Christ and those in Christ, regardless of their lineage.
In Galatians 3:8-9, Paul adds: Know then that it is those of faith who are the sons of Abraham. And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, “In you shall all the nations be blessed.” So then, those who are of faith are blessed along with Abraham, the man of faith.
I also think you're wrong about the use of "tribes" for Israel: "tribes likely can refer to Gentiles, both in the LXX and in the GNT.
See Revelation 5:9; 7:9; 11:9; 13:7; 14:6. Cf. Daniel 7:13-14 LXX.
The plain, literal referent of "seed" in Genesis 12:3 is that the descendants of Abraham would come through Isaac, which is confirmed multiple times, including by Paul himself:
[Genesis 21:12 YLT] (12) and God saith unto Abraham, 'Let it not be wrong in thine eyes because of the youth, and because of thy handmaid: all that Sarah saith unto thee -- hearken to her voice, for in Isaac is a seed called to thee.
[Romans 9:7 YLT] (7) nor because they are seed of Abraham [are] all children, but -- 'in Isaac shall a seed be called to thee;'
[Hebrews 11:18 YLT] (18) of whom it was said -- 'In Isaac shall a seed be called to thee;'
[Deuteronomy 1:8 YLT] (8) see, I have set before you the land; go in and possess the land which Jehovah hath sworn to your fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, to give to them, and to their seed after them.
[Deuteronomy 6:10 YLT] (10) 'And it hath been, when Jehovah thy God doth bring thee in unto the land which He hath sworn to thy fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, to give to thee -- cities great and good, which thou hast not built,
[Deuteronomy 9:5 YLT] (5) not for thy righteousness, and for the uprightness of thy heart, art thou going in to possess their land; but for the wickedness of these nations is Jehovah thy God dispossessing them from before thee; and in order to establish the word which Jehovah hath sworn to thy fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob;
[Deuteronomy 29:13 YLT] (13) in order to establish thee to-day to Him for a people, and He Himself is thy God, as He hath spoken to thee, and as He hath sworn to thy fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob.
[1 Kings 18:36 YLT] (36) And it cometh to pass, at the going up of the [evening-]present, that Elijah the prophet cometh nigh and saith, 'Jehovah, God of Abraham, Isaac, and Israel, to-day let it be known that Thou [art] God in Israel, and I Thy servant, that by Thy word I have done the whole of these things;
This is why I have long suspected that Paul was consciously being a tad bit dishonest with the text in order to use it as an illustration of a point he wants to get across, and begins his teaching with "I speak in the manner of men":
[Galatians 3:15-16 NKJV] (15) Brethren, I speak in the manner of men: Though [it is] only a man's covenant, yet [if it is] confirmed, no one annuls or adds to it. (16) Now to Abraham and his Seed were the promises made. He does not say, "And to seeds," as of many, but as of one, "And to your Seed," who is Christ.
If I'm wrong about that then Paul was not qualifying his unfaithful reading and was simply being disingenuous.
Which is it in your view? Was he stretching the truth to make a point, and confessing to doing so? Or was he simply a liar?
I never said Revelation 1:7 wasn't an allusion to Daniel 7:13-14. In fact, I wrote the exact opposite of what you claimed I said. I've also disproved your suggestion that tribes cannot/does not refer to the goyim. It's hard work correcting so many errors :-)
How do you know the temple mentioned in Revelation 11;1-4 is the Jewish temple in Jerusalem? You're reading that meaning into the verse, but I don't see the passage itself say it's the 1st century temple in Jerusalem.
Dating the Fourth Gospel is a huge subject in itself, but with regard to Revelation, I'm not claiming that John prophesied after the fact. However, there ius a good line of evidence to support the late date for the book (that is, circa 96 CE). See https://fosterheologicalreflections.blogspot.com/2017/06/the-case-for-revelation-being-written.html
Again, you impose your opinion on 1 John 2:18-19: the last hour does not have to be when antichrists first appear. That is eisegesis, pure and simple. I can deal with these arguments later. For now, please see the commentary here: https://www.biblegateway.com/resources/commentaries/IVP-NT/1John/Warnings-Against-Antichrists
In answer to your last question, I accept neither sides of your faulty dichotomy. Paul neither strtched the truth in Galatians 3, nor was he a liar. You totally miscontrue his statement about making an utterance in the manner of humans. He was talking about the covenant part of his utterance as the context shows.
On Paul's use of "seed" language, I guess you skipped Romans 9:6-8 where he distinguishes the fleshly seed from the seed of promise.
See the article here for possible dates of the Fourth Gospel and Johannine Epistles: https://www.biblegateway.com/resources/encyclopedia-of-the-bible/Epistles-John
From Daniel Akin's NAC work on John's Epistles:
Any determination for the date of these three letters is problematic. Usually, the relationship of 1 John and the Fourth Gospel is raised (which came first?), but again the evidence for making a judgment is at best inferential. Still, a reasonable reconstruction is at least plausible given certain textual clues, historical developments, and early church tradition. Tradition is strong that John spent his latter years in the city of Ephesus ministering to the churches of Asia Minor. Irenaeus wrote, “John, the disciple of the Lord, who also leaned upon His breast, did himself publish a Gospel during his residence at Ephesus in Asia” (Against Heresies, 3.1.1). Therefore, it would seem reasonable to see the place of writing for the three epistles also as Ephesus.²³ We have already offered internal evidence that would indicate that John was an aged man when he wrote the epistles. It is also the case that church tradition says John was at Ephesus “remaining among them permanently until the time of Trajan” (Against Heresies, 3.3.4). Trajan reigned as Roman emperor A.D. 98-117. This fact would indicate John died toward the end of the first century, which sets a terminus for his writings. A date of somewhere between A.D. 85 and 100 is reasonable. To be more precise than this is not possible, though numerous scholars tend to push the date of writing for the three letters into the nineties. Marshall points out that whatever date one affirms “must allow adequate time for the growth of the false teaching reflected in 1 John.”²⁴ This is perhaps why many scholars believe a date in the late first century is the wisest judgment concerning the date of writing.
Enjoy your late date speculation without me. I've wasted enough time dealing with a person I know has zero interest in violating the teachings of those he esteems to be apostles, but I recognize as false apostles. Such is life.
Late date speculation for the Johannine Epistles, as you call it, is not an idea held by JWs alone: it's the standard view in GNT scholarship. Dating the composition of Johannine Epistles has zero to do with holding to JW teaching. However, I'm glad you're saving my time, so I don't have to post tons of data that support the late date for the Johannine literature and Revelation. Sorry that you're interested in preaching, proselytizing, and advocating your own opinion and you're not willing to alter your views, or so it seems. No hard feelings though--that's more time I can spend with family and members of my congregation. Best to you, Bill.
As a side note, I will still post issues that deal with some of the topics you raised, but I will not be debating you or spending inordinate amounts of time researching/answering your claims. Take care.
Unless John wrote 1 John today, he still doesn't agree with the Governing Body, because they/you teach that THIS is the last hour of the overlapping generations.
From the 12/1/2006 WT: “Young children, it is the last hour [evidently the end of the apostolic period], and, just as you have heard that antichrist is coming, even now there have come to be many antichrists.”—1 John 2:18.
Insight on the Scriptures (Vol. 1:115-116):
The subject was not new among the Christians when John wrote his letters (c. 98 C.E.). First John 2:18 states: “Young children, it is the last hour, and, just as you have heard that antichrist [Gr., an·tiʹkhri·stos] is coming, even now there have come to be many antichrists; from which fact we gain the knowledge that it is the last hour.” John’s statement shows that there are many individual antichrists, though all together they may form a composite person designated “the antichrist.” (2Jo 7) The use of the expression “hour” as referring to a period of time, either relatively brief or of undetermined length, is exemplified in other writings of John. (See Joh 2:4; 4:21-23; 5:25, 28; 7:30; 8:20; 12:23, 27.) He thus did not restrict the appearance, existence, and activity of such antichrist to some future time only but showed that the antichrist was then present and would continue on.—1Jo 4:3.
The end of the apostolic period was 70 AD/CE, when Christ returned and fulfilled the last of the prophets:
[Luke 21:20-22 NKJV] (20) "But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation is near. (21) "Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those who are in the midst of her depart, and let not those who are in the country enter her. (22) "For these are the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.
If you put this off 20 years you ruin the last "seven" which was the first seventy years of the first century.
You wrote: "The subject was not new among the Christians when John wrote his letters (c. 98 C.E.)."
Please show me anywhere where Jesus or any apostle spoke of the end of the time of the apostles and I'll show you a hundred where they spoke of the arrival of the King, to judge and destroy Jerusalem, the Temple and the Judean theocracy.
You have been misled.
I thought we were done with our conversation since you cannot countenance "false prophets."
You're relying on Daniel 9:24-27 to back your view of the Matthean and other prophecies being fulfilled in seventy years. Yet, how do you know that Daniel's words started to be fulfilled at the beginning of the first century or before?
You also claim that Christ returned in 70 CE, but there's no way to prove it besides opinion. How did "every eye" see him then, even those who executed him?
And when did the early followers of Jesus run to the hills of Pella in fulfillment of Luke 21:20-22? One hint: it was after 63 CE.
I actually quoted the Insight on the Scriptures book, which said the subject was not new among Christians when John wrote. The subject it's talking about is the antichrist. See Insight, volume 1:115-116.
Firstly, we acknowledge that Matthew 24 was fulflled on a minor level when Jerusalem was destroyed in 70 CE; so why argue about that? The question is whether the prophecies are limited to the first century, which they are not.
Here are some verses that indicate the apostles still expected heresy/apostasy to still develop:
2 Peter 2:1-3: But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them--bringing swift destruction on themselves. Many will follow their shameful ways and will bring the way of truth into disrepute. In their greed these teachers will exploit you with stories they have made up. Their condemnation has long been hanging over them, and their destruction has not been sleeping.
2 Peter 3:1-10; Jude 17-19; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-4; Revelation 16:14-16; 19:11-21.
You are saying that John and his audience understood the "last hour" to be in reference to the end of the age of the apostles, but not of the return of Christ. But Christ specifically and repeatedly said that the age of the apostles would not end before he returned:
[Matthew 16:28 KJV] (28) Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.
[Matthew 10:23 KJV] (23) But when they persecute you in this city, flee ye into another: for verily I say unto you, Ye shall not have gone over the cities of Israel, till the Son of man be come.
[Luke 9:27 KJV] (27) But I tell you of a truth, there be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the kingdom of God.
John, in particular, seems to be hinted to be one of the ones that would still be alive, while Peter would be martyred:
[John 21:17-24 KJV] (17) He saith unto him the third time, Simon, [son] of Jonas, lovest thou me? Peter was grieved because he said unto him the third time, Lovest thou me? And he said unto him, Lord, thou knowest all things; thou knowest that I love thee. Jesus saith unto him, Feed my sheep. (18) Verily, verily, I say unto thee, When thou wast young, thou girdedst thyself, and walkedst whither thou wouldest: but when thou shalt be old, thou shalt stretch forth thy hands, and another shall gird thee, and carry [thee] whither thou wouldest not. (19) This spake he, signifying by what death he should glorify God. And when he had spoken this, he saith unto him, Follow me. (20) Then Peter, turning about, seeth the disciple whom Jesus loved following; which also leaned on his breast at supper, and said, Lord, which is he that betrayeth thee? (21) Peter seeing him saith to Jesus, Lord, and what [shall] this man [do]? (22) Jesus saith unto him, If I will that he tarry till I come, what [is that] to thee? follow thou me. (23) Then went this saying abroad among the brethren, that that disciple should not die: yet Jesus said not unto him, He shall not die; but, If I will that he tarry till I come, what [is that] to thee? (24) This is the disciple which testifieth of these things, and wrote these things: and we know that his testimony is true.
All your words are designed to prove that the words of the LORD and his apostles were not fulfilled, and the words of your apostles are about to be fulfilled:
[Matthew 23:36 ASV] (36) Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.
[Matthew 24:34 ASV] (34) Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all these things be accomplished.
[Mark 13:30 ASV] (30) Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, until all these things be accomplished.
[Luke 11:50-51 ASV] (50) that the blood of all the prophets, which was shed from the foundation of the world, may be required of this generation; (51) from the blood of Abel unto the blood of Zachariah, who perished between the altar and the sanctuary: yea, I say unto you, it shall be required of this generation.
[Luke 21:32 ASV] (32) Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all things be accomplished.
[Romans 16:20 NASB20] (20) The God of peace will soon crush Satan under your feet. The grace of our Lord Jesus be with you.
I've already addresses many of the points you've brought up again. Jesus didn't exactly say that the apostolic age would not end before he returned; also, I don't know why the 2-level view of prophecy is so hard to understand. A prophecy can be fulfilled in more than one way or OT statements can have more than one application like Matthew 24:34; Mark 13:30. I realize they were fulfilled in the 1st century, which I've typed before. Don't know how else I can say it :-)
The problem there is that the current age (IE: the Kingdom age) has no end because it is an everlasting, ever growing Kingdom! A billion years from now, the Kingdom of God will remain the Light of the World, ever adding more and more children of Abraham.
https://www.quora.com/Does-history-actually-REPEAT-itself-in-terms-of-the-events-depicted-in-biblical-exegesis-and-eschatology-Could-Isaiah-65-17-19-be-concerned-about-Ancient-Israel-AND-the-Second-Coming-of-Christ-because-history-is/answer/Bill-Ross-22
The entire Bible is a history book. It tells the story of the origin of the Kingdom of God. All prophecy has been fulfilled. There is no more prophecy to be fulfilled.
One problem is proving that we live in a 2000 year old Kingdom age: it can be asserted, but proof is another matter. Prophecies like Isaiah's new heavens/new earth account serve as examples of prophetic narratives that have more than one fulfillment, and that's how the GNT writers treated these prophecies.
Many prophcies have been fulfilled, but some still remain. Jehovah God has not yet brought an end to suffering.
You wrote a profound and irrefutable truth when you wrote these words:
"One problem is proving that we live in a 2000 year old Kingdom age: it can be asserted, but proof is another matter."
I completely agree! There is a HUGE problem when one tries to relate the NT with pesky things like facts and reality. You are 1000% right to chafe at the idea that the NT characterization of the words of the Tanach is sustainable, literally. We already looked at Matthew's "he shall be called a Nazarene" fulfillment. It is bogus. The virgin conceiving idea is bogus. And so on. But my stance is that despite the facts of the case disagreeing, the NT authors DO assert that this is a miraculous fulfillment.
And is the Catholic Church faithful to the NT? NO. They are false apostles. Peter wasn't the first Pope of Rome. Reality does NOT line up.
But for me, job number one is to find out what the NT authors want us to understand. Only when we get that right can we evaluate how it meshes with reality.
I'm convinced that what the NT authors asserted neither has actual congruity with the OT texts (in many cases) and what actually happened historically is also far afield.
Given that reality, Christianity is rather problematic to me altogether, though, at the same time, it is quite amazing and the sole promiser of what we all so badly need.
I'm not going to revive the conversation about David/Jonathan and Jesus/Lazarus, but I later found a piece by Robert Gagnon that shreds the idea to pieces.
Having said that, I want to add that JWs have to develop somewhat of a tough skin because most people don't like us/our doctrine for numerous reasons. But in the case of same-sex relations, I find that early Jews, Christians and even medieval Muslims agree with the JW view. Most importantly, I believe the Scriptures teach that homosexuality is a sin, but so is adultery, bestiality, and the viewing of pornography.
My friend, I hold nothing against you and will tell you when I agree with your statements or do not agree. But I must say that I'm glad no human--and that includes me--is the determiner of who is a friend of Jesus or not :-)
Please be well.
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