Romans 8:16 (NA28): αὐτὸ τὸ πνεῦμα συμμαρτυρεῖ τῷ πνεύματι ἡμῶν ὅτι ἐσμὲν τέκνα θεοῦ.
To which spirit (τῷ πνεύματι ἡμῶν) does the holy spirit bear witness, whether it bears witness with or to the human spirit?
One problem is what we mean by "spirit." The term is nebulous or
ambiguous in both English and biblical languages. What does the
word "spirit" lexically mean in the expressions "spirit of God" or
"spirit of YHWH"?
Spirit can refer to
one's life force (Psalm 146:3-4); one's dominant mental
attitude (Genesis 26:35) or to the basic constitution of a
being (Psalm 104:4). In English,
many people converse about the psychological, moral,
aesthetic or spiritual "self" and equate it with the
human "spirit." Neuroscientist Joseph LeDoux believes that the
"self" is neural/synaptic and that it is only
through the neural self that our other "selves" are
realized.
Other writers associate the "self" with
one's identity as a person. I too could agree that the
"self" is what/who we are (i.e., it's not a part of us), but the word
"spirit" needs to be nuanced before any real progress
can be made in understanding how God's spirit bears witness with/to the human spirit.
In the sentence,
"My spirit is soaring today," one could be referring
to his/her dominant mental disposition or someone could mean
that one's whole being (i.e., what you are as a person)
is euphoric. Alternatively, when we read that God's
spirit empowered the ancient Israelite Judges or
caused one hundred and twenty persons to speak in tongues, I don't
believe the Bible writers are utilizing "spirit" as the term is commonly understood today. Forget the whole Trinity debate, in what sense does God's spirit bear witness with/to the human spirit? What is the human spirit that has this experience? I submit that the spirit Paul was talking about is one's dominant mental attitude: it's similar to talking about a humble spirit or a haughty spirit. God's spirit reorients the thinking of his spiritual children, giving them a new birth to a living hope (1 Peter 1:3-4). As Paul states, if we have suffered with Christ, we shall be glorified with him as heirs of God, but joint-heirs with Christ (Romans 8:17).
Thursday, August 25, 2022
To Which Spirit Does the Holy Spirit Bear Witness? (Romans 8:16)
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https://biblehub.com/text/ezekiel/36-27.htm
I believe that verse is one of many that speaks of Jehovah placing his spirit in his worshipers. The promise was originally given to Israel but it seems that the early Christians applied the verse to themselves and saw further senses in the passage.
Disclaimer: I don't speak for any sect.
I'm of the opinion that the coining of the word "spirit" in English to accommodate Trinitarian theology has muddied the waters for everyone in trying to read the scriptures. The only decision we should have to make when encountering ruach and pneuma is to determine if it is referring the moving air inside of a person or externally on a larger scale outside of a person. The scriptural uses of ruach and pneuma confuse many because they don't understand that the ancients ascribed somewhat magical properties to these few gasses because we understand considerably more, thanks to science.
For the ancients, what could more resemble magic than the wind? You can't see it, but you can't live without it. It is the vehicle by which you communicate. It is the animus of man and fish. It gives consciousness and all the inborn matters of the heart.
So the Catholics coined a new word, "spirit," which is the Latin word for "breath," only they distinguish it from breath. So a material dualism was born.
By the way, "ghost" was coined from "geist" in Olde German. It also meant "breath."
Now, Moses made man with two elements. He sculpted Adam (clay) into a statue of himself. Then he breathed into him the breath of {that gives} life. That same breath was in the fish.
Paul appeals to this principle:
[Rom 8:1-2 NIV] [1] Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, [2] because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit who gives life has set you free from the law of sin and death.
Really? What he's saying per the Koine is, "the principle of the breath of life." Breath goes in, you live, but with no breath? Lights out.
In the context of Psalm 146:3-4, it seems very clear to me that the reference is to the animating "breath of life" of Genesis 2:7.
[Psa 146:3-4 NIV] [3] Do not put your trust in princes, in human beings, who cannot save. [4] When their spirit departs, they return to the ground; on that very day their plans come to nothing.
In that light, we also have this:
[Jhn 6:63 NIV] [63] The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you--they are full of the Spirit and life.
"Spirit gives life"? What? No, breath gives life. That's why it is called "the breath of life." Duh.
So in all the conflict, it is breath vs flesh (the clay part). IF ONLY people would eject the word "spirit" from our vocabulary, we would begin to understand one of Paul's central concepts.
So how are we to understand this?
[Rom 8:16 DBY] [16] The Spirit itself bears witness with our spirit, that we are children of God.
Dispense with the word "spirit."
And view this parallel:
[1Co 2:10-11 NKJV] [10] But God has revealed [them] to us through His Spirit. For the Spirit searches all things, yes, the deep things of God. [11] For what man knows the things of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? Even so no one knows the things of God except the Spirit of God.
The "us" here are the apostles.
"Spirit" in all cases, is breath. So read it:
[1Co 2:10-11] [10] But God has revealed [them] to us [apostles] through His breath. For the breath searches all things, yes, the deep things of God. [11] For what man knows the things of a man except the breath {animus} of the man which is in him? Even so no one knows the things of God except the breath of God.
This is PRECISELY why we see this:
[Act 2:2 NKJV] [2] And suddenly there came a sound from heaven, as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled the whole house where they were sitting.
Why the sound of a mighty wind? Because it was air moving and filling their lungs with the animus of God.
https://biblehub.com/hebrew/vattippaem_6470.htm
The ancients were already attributing other meanings to ruach. Unless we are to think that they just woke up with breathing trouble.
My point in my previous comment was to show that the ancients considered breath to be "magical" and have powers. For example, it was breath that gave all the animals life and awareness. To them it wasn't just "air," IE: gasses. So consider:
Paul's treatise on emancipation from the "body of death" and its unruly appetites whom he refers to as "[Mr.] Sin" in Romans 6-8 is contrasted with the principle found in breath:
[Rom 8:2 CSB] [2] because **the law of the Spirit of life** in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and death.
That, of course is a mistranslation and misses the point. It should read:
[Rom 8:2 CSB] [2] because **the law of the breath of life** in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and death.
Now, he's referring specifically to God's **holy** breath.
Another telling passage is this:
[1Co 2:10-16 CSB] [10] Now God has revealed these things to us [IE: the apostles] by the Spirit [Breath!!], since the Spirit [Breath!!] searches everything, even the depths of God. [11] For who knows a person's thoughts except his spirit [breath!!] within him? In the same way, no one knows the thoughts of God except the Spirit [Breath!!] of God. [12] Now we have not received the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who comes from God, so that we may understand what has been freely given to us by God. [13] We also speak these things, not in words taught by human wisdom, but in those taught by the Spirit [Breath!!], explaining spiritual [Breath-inspired!!] things to spiritual [Breath-inspired!!] people. [14] But the person without the Spirit [holy Breath!!] does not receive what comes from God's Spirit [Breath!!], because it is foolishness to him; he is not able to understand it since it is evaluated spiritually [by Breath inspiration!!]. [15] The spiritual [Breath-inspired!!] person, however, can evaluate everything, and yet he himself cannot be evaluated by anyone. [16] For who has known the Lord's mind, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.
It is with this "mind" and "animus" that the Christian is to live a life pleasing to God. The "mind" of the physical body of death is the "carnal mind." IE: "thinking with your dick" so to speak.
It, like everything in the scriptures is ultimately metaphor (LOGOS), but if we avoid what the scriptures literally say, we destroy the power of the metaphor.
Consider one more:
[Eph 2:1-3 CSB] [1] And you were dead in your trespasses and sins [2] in which you previously lived according to the ways of this world, according to the ruler of the power of the air, the spirit now working in the disobedient. [3] We too all previously lived among them in our fleshly desires, carrying out the inclinations of our flesh and thoughts, and we were by nature children under wrath as the others were also.
I'm sure you are all aware of the string of genitives in this passage:
[Eph 2:1-3 MGNT] [1] καὶ ὑμᾶς ὄντας νεκροὺς τοῖς παραπτώμασιν καὶ ταῖς ἁμαρτίαις ὑμῶν [2] ἐν αἷς ποτε περιεπατήσατε **κατὰ τὸν αἰῶνα τοῦ κόσμου τούτου κατὰ τὸν ἄρχοντα τῆς ἐξουσίας τοῦ ἀέρος τοῦ πνεύματος τοῦ νῦν ἐνεργοῦντος ἐν τοῖς υἱοῖς τῆς ἀπειθείας** [3] ἐν οἷς καὶ ἡμεῖς πάντες ἀνεστράφημέν ποτε ἐν ταῖς ἐπιθυμίαις τῆς σαρκὸς ἡμῶν ποιοῦντες τὰ θελήματα τῆς σαρκὸς καὶ τῶν διανοιῶν καὶ ἤμεθα τέκνα φύσει ὀργῆς ὡς καὶ οἱ λοιποί
The author of Ephesians is notorious for writing run-on sentences. Now every English translator puts a comma after air, and begins the sentence with a genitive, to suggest that evil ruler is given domain above us, and the pneuma is the ubiquitous singular "spirit-being," the "AIWN." In other words, they miss the point. It is air given by this AIWN that operates as breath inside the disobedient. Thus, the anti-breath.
Now undoing traditional manipulation of the text to accommodate Catholic Trinity dogma is a big ask, but that is what must be done. "Not by might, not by power but by my Breath" says the LORD.
Okay, I ask that people commenting on this forum refrain from profane or crude language, thank you. But while I agree with some of what you say, I don't think one can limit ruach/ruah or pneuma to "breath." As Duncan said, the ancients imputed more meanings to these words than just breath, although that was part of it. The whole Trinitarian approach to the subject is wrong, yes, but ruach also can be rendered "wind" in some contexts and I know the German Geist has a range of meanings that includes "mind" and "reason." Cf. the word Weltgeist."
It's also hard to see how the "breath of God" knows the things of God. Breath is not intelligent or discerning; neither is wind. But spirit could be. Additionally, Jesus compares being born again/from above to the pneuma, which seems to be the wind, not necessarily breath. Yet breath is part of the word's semantic domain.
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/362957830_Breathing_Divine_Breath_on_the_Greco-Egyptian_Sources_of_Hesychasm
Just spotted this paper. 2 Tim 3:16 and it's single use of θεόπνευστος.
https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=U7EVEAAAQBAJ&pg=PT18&lpg=PT18&dq=%CE%B8%CE%B5%CF%8C%CF%80%CE%BD%CE%B5%CF%85%CF%83%CF%84%CE%BF%CF%82+etymology&source=bl&ots=Gu5-Z3F7ZP&sig=ACfU3U0f-WWmXkZkkx2FcC5JP1bCzsiFWg&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiUqdqQo-r5AhVMQ8AKHVQuAw8Q6AF6BAgcEAI#v=onepage&q=%CE%B8%CE%B5%CF%8C%CF%80%CE%BD%CE%B5%CF%85%CF%83%CF%84%CE%BF%CF%82%20etymology&f=false
I may have given the impression that I was limiting ruach and pneuma to breath, however, that was not my intent. I agree that "wind" is clearly within their semantic domain.
And my point again was that live, intelligence, awareness, revelation, communication, "spooky action at a distance," and even the evil influences of the AION are attributed to breath/air/moving air. And look how Jesus speaks of the wind:
[Jhn 3:6-8 YLT] [6] that which hath been born of the flesh is flesh, and that which hath been born of the Spirit [IE: wind] is spirit [IE: wind]. [7] 'Thou mayest not wonder that I said to thee, It behoveth you to be born from above; [8] the Spirit [IE: wind] where he willeth doth blow, and his voice thou dost hear, but thou hast not known whence he cometh, and whither he goeth; thus is every one who hath been born of the Spirit [IE: wind].'
[Psa 104:4 NIV] [4] He makes winds his messengers, flames of fire his servants.
Quoted from the mistranslated LXX by Hebrews like this:
[Heb 1:7 CSB] [7] And about the angels he says: He makes his angels [IE: messengers] winds, and his servants a fiery flame,
In biblical anatomy, one's breath is not the only intelligent component or even element. Water is likewise mysterious and magical.
[Jhn 4:14 NKJV] [14] "but whoever drinks of the water that I shall give him will never thirst. But the water that I shall give him will become in him a fountain of water springing up into everlasting life."
[Rev 7:17 ASV] [17] for the Lamb that is in the midst of the throne shall be their shepherd, and shall guide them unto fountains of waters of life: and God shall wipe away every tear from their eyes.
[Rom 10:10 NKJV] [10] For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
[Jer 17:10 NKJV] [10] I, the LORD, search the heart, [I] test the mind, Even to give every man according to his ways, According to the fruit of his doings.
[Psa 44:21 NKJV] [21] Would not God search this out? For He knows the secrets of the heart.
[Psa 77:6 NKJV] [6] I call to remembrance my song in the night; I meditate within my heart, And my spirit makes diligent search.
[Ecc 1:13 NKJV] [13] And I set my heart to seek and search out by wisdom concerning all that is done under heaven; this burdensome task God has given to the sons of man, by which they may be exercised.
[Ecc 7:25 NKJV] [25] I applied my heart to know, To search and seek out wisdom and the reason [of things], To know the wickedness of folly, Even of foolishness [and] madness.
[Zep 1:12 NKJV] [12] "And it shall come to pass at that time [That] I will search Jerusalem with lamps, And punish the men Who are settled in complacency, Who say in their heart, 'The LORD will not do good, Nor will He do evil.'
[Rom 7:23 NKJV] [23] But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
They had no idea that all these were simply brain function (though the gut, our "second brain" is, in fact, intelligent as well).
Again, let's not repeat Nicodemus' mistake and fail to realize that everything in the scriptures is ultimately metaphor (LOGOS).
See Aristotle regarding wind as opposed to breath:-
http://www.geophysics.geol.uoa.gr/frame_en/histo/aristotle_en.html
Hi Duncan. I'm not sure I see the relevance of Aristotle's ponderings.
Aristotle say -"Then the sun and its own fire warm it and give rise to a quantity of wind both outside and inside it. This wind sometimes flows outwards in a single body, sometimes inwards, and sometimes it is divided."
Then we read modern science - "The solar wind can be strongly affected by solar flares and coronal mass ejections, both of which fling huge amounts of coronal material and embedded magnetic fields into space. These ejected particles become a powerful “gust” in the solar wind. When they reach the earth, they can cause severe space weather storms."
www.inverse.com/science/atmospheric-river-storms/amp
So was Aristotle working only with metaphors?
As to what the ancients did and did not know, we can only speculate.
ἐσπλαγχνίσθη = gut wrenching pain. The gut brain interface, the vagus nerve is a two way system and it seems to me that they were well aware of a connection, at least in one direction. The heart for mind connection is physical. Does your heart beat faster when you are worried or stressed? The Egyptians made that connection and it stuck.
Plato was, in my opinion, a closeted Jew. I mean, he had long discussions with Jeremiah, the Jewish prophet, who seemed to have prevailed in convincing him of at least some of the Jewish scriptures. However, he wasn't interested in drinking Kool-Aid spiked with hemlock so simply incorporated many things in his philosophy.
Aristotle was Plato's pupil, but he did not agree with Plato's "ideas." He was a naturalist. He was constitutionally disposed as a scientist.
Please see:
https://www.britannica.com/story/plato-and-aristotle-how-do-they-differ
As to the quote from Aristotle, the wind in and out of the earth, as the explanation for volcanos. In other words, the heat powers the not just the surface of the earth but also of the eruption of a volcano. Smart, but not CME smart!
Please see:
https://cof.quantumfuturegroup.org/events/2907
https://samizdat.mines.edu/greek-seismology-by-christopher-l-liner-department-of-geosciences-university-of-tulsa/
@Duncan, I think we've strayed from the topic.
What do you make of John 3:8?
In the Greek and the Hebrew we are dealing with the same word:
[Jhn 3:8 VUL] [8] Spiritus ubi vult spirat et vocem eius audis sed non scis unde veniat et quo vadat sic est omnis qui natus est ex Spiritu
Not so in the English, why?
I say, translate it as written and don't invent a new word and Bingo, it all becomes clear.
https://resoundingthefaith.com/2019/02/23/greek-%cf%80%ce%bd%ce%bf%ce%ae-pnoe-latin-inspirare/
"In the New Testament, on the other hand, a strong wind gives inspiration to the Apostles at Pentecost. It is interesting that Paul indirectly alludes to God giving life (breath) to Adam."
New creation.
Exactly.
John has a lot less bruhaha than Acts, but he has the same idea:
[Jhn 20:22 NKJV] [22] And when He had said this, He breathed on [them], and said to them, "Receive the Holy Spirit.
2 Thessalonians 2:8; Isa 11:4; Rev 2:16; 19:15.
All interesting? I think this is talking about Torah.
From the book of Sirach:-
"Every breach of the law is like a two -edged sword; it inflicts an incurable wound"
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