Monday, September 12, 2022

Philippians 4:11-12--What Does It Mean to Be Self-Sufficient? (Vincent and Hellerman)

Greek (SBLGNT): οὐχ ὅτι καθ’ ὑστέρησιν λέγω, ἐγὼ γὰρ ἔμαθον ἐν οἷς εἰμι αὐτάρκης εἶναι· οἶδα καὶ ταπεινοῦσθαι, οἶδα καὶ περισσεύειν· ἐν παντὶ καὶ ἐν πᾶσιν μεμύημαι, καὶ χορτάζεσθαι καὶ πεινᾶν, καὶ περισσεύειν καὶ ὑστερεῖσθαι·

Many works have dealt with these verses, but in this entry, I will confine myself to a couple of observations on the text. My focus is the Greek,
εἰμι αὐτάρκης εἶναι. To see the complete remarks by these authors, please consult their respective works.

Marvin R. Vincent (Philippians and Philemon):

ατάρκης: ‘self-sufficing.’ Only here in N.T.; LXX Sir. 40:18; ατάρκεια, 2 Co 9:8; 1 Ti 6:6. Ατάρκεια is an inward self-sufficing, as opposed to the lack or the desire of outward things. Comp. Plat. Tim. 33 D, γήσατο γρ ατὸ ὁ ξυνθες αταρκες ν μεινον σεσθαι μλλον προσδες λλων: “For the Creator conceived that a being which was self-sufficient would be far more excellent than one which lacked anything.” It was a favorite Stoic word. See on πολιτεύεσθε, 1:27. It expressed the doctrine of that sect that man should be sufficient unto himself for all things, and able, by the power of his own will, to resist the force of circumstances. Comp. Seneca, De Vita Beata, 6, addressed to Gallio: “Beatus est praesentibus, qualiacunque sunt, contentus.” A list of interesting paralls. in Wetst. Paul is not self-sufficient in the Stoic sense, but through the power of a new self—the power of Christ in him. (Comp. 2 Co 3:5.)


Joseph H. Hellerman (Philippians):

Commentators differ over whether Paul has Stoicism directly in view. By Paul’s time the technical meaning of ατρκης, “self-sufficient,” had given way to a general, nonphilosophical sense, “content” (G. Kittel, TDNT 1.466–67; Fee 431–32; O’Brien 521; Reumann 653; Silva 204). Paul uses the cognate ατάρκεια elsewhere twice in this nontechnical sense (2 Cor 9:8; 1 Tim 6:6). The appearance of the hapax ατρκης here, however, in a context full of Stoic overtones, suggests a philosophical background (MM 93c; H-M 264; Hansen 311; “it is difficult to imagine the Philippians not having recognized it as such” [Fee 432]).

Paul’s α
τάρκεια, however, is ultimately not a “self-sufficiency” at all. No Stoic would have added πντα σχω ν τῷ ἐνδυναμοντμε (v. 13). Nor would a Stoic philosopher have engaged in Paul’s outburst of joy in v. 10 (for the Stoic “emotional detachment is essential” [Hansen 310]; χρην is “unStoic” [Fee 428 n. 20; Reumann 701], as is λπην πλπην [2:27]; cf. Wright 433–34, on Paul’s different perspective on suffering). The contrast articulated by G. Findlay more than a century ago deserves citation: “The self-sufficiency of the Christian is relative: an independence of the world through dependence upon God. The Stoic self-sufficiency pretends to be absolute. One is the contentment of faith, the other of pride. Cato (a Roman Stoic) and Paul both stand erect and fearless before a persecuting world: one with a look of rigid, defiant scorn, the other with a face now lighted up with unutterable joy in God” (G. Findlay, Christian Doctrine [London: Charles Kelly, 1894], 31).

96 comments:

Duncan said...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lTd757O8PzE

Edgar Foster said...

I approved your video, but I will be frank. I don't see how it directly enhances our understanding of the Greek text or its historical background. I was trying to understand "self-sufficiency" in Pauline terms/within his context before applying the concept to today. But in any event, I don't think Paul had permaculture in mind when he penned Philippians 4:11-12.

Not that I'm berating the idea. However, you know I try to learn about the meaning of Greek words and what was happening in the 1st century, and how the early writers understood the words they used. That was my main focus in the post. Nuff from me.

Duncan said...

Permaculture (or what ever one wants to call it) is based on what we know about non agricultural societies throughout history. Even in mainly agricultural societies they had pockets of horticulture. We know this from evidence of ancient food forests and seed and residue analysis.

Living with plenty did not have to mean bread. At that time one was more likely to be in want in the city than in the country.

Self sufficiency is more about knowledge than resources.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3EShkimqrVE

Anecdotally, I have heard of whites who were found lost in the outback and dead from starvation but when the aboriginals found them they were puzzled as they knew there was plenty of food all around them.

This is part of what has given me a whole new understanding of Torah and Daniel 12:4. Cf. 2 Chronicles 16:9, Zechariah 4:10, Job 1:7

Duncan said...

John the baptizer ate locust and honey (short for "bush food") - was he content?

Edgar Foster said...

Briefly, I'll say that John was probably content with locusts and wild honey. The ancient men and women of faith did some amazing things and suffered hardships because they were persons of faith. As Hebrews says, the world was not worthy of such ones.

"self-sufficiency" is contextual: the Stoic view of being autarchic was not the Pauline view. The apostle said that he learned to be self-sufficient regardless of what he possessed, whether he had much or little. Note how he goes from describing self-sufficiency/contentment to saying who the source of his ability is (Philippians 4:13). Compare also 1 Timothy 6:6-8.

I would submit that self-sufficiency in the Pauline sense is also about faith and spirituality, dependence on God and Christ (Heb. 13:5-6).

To your point about knowledge and resources, an Alfred Hitchcock episode illustrated the same thing. Some men were surrounded with plenty of water, yet they died from the desert heat because they did not know the water was there. Good old Hitchcock.

Technically, I thought bush food applies to certain Australian fare :-)

Duncan said...

"Bush tucker" is uniquely Australian. "Bush meat" tends to be considered African. In the UK we just call it foraging - https://www.amazon.co.uk/Food-Free-Collins-Richard-Mabey/dp/0007183038

But as per recent discussion, "spirituality" will need to be clarified?

The "roving about" could equate to having a far better understanding of the world around us. True knowledge. To walk about is to see. Coming back to the aboriginals - I am sure you have heard of "going walkabout", this has great significance and meaning for them.

Edgar Foster said...

I'm not going to be pedantic, but I was remarking on the terminology "bush food." I agree that "bush meat" tends to be African usage, but "bush food" is supposed to be synonymous with "bush tucker."

As for spirituality, it has many definitions, but I use the term like the WT publications do, to mean a person who is "God-oriented." Or one can say a person led by the holy spirit of God.

I am familiar with "going walkabout." Some have tried to make this language/idea into a commercial venture, like the walkabout restaurant.

With respect to "roving about," I could see applying the principle, but Dan. 12:4 is likely talking about "roving" in the sacred text and Jehovah's eyes rove throughout the earth, but that language is highly contextualized. When Satan roves about in the earth, I'm not sure that we're simply to conclude that he's merely observing or seeing what he can learn.

Duncan said...

https://101waystoliveto100.com/2015/11/29/secret-no-31-southern-african-bush-food/

It's a way of eating. Not a specific location. See the translation of the African term.

If you eat from a scrub land then it is bush food.

Duncan said...

https://royalsocietypublishing.org/doi/10.1098/rstb.1951.0003#:~:text=Migratory%20flight%20occurs%20as%20the,is%20attributed%20primarily%20to%20gregariousness.

Locust migrate so it is also highly unlikely that the baptizer would be eating only these and honey.

Duncan said...

Conflation again.

https://biblehub.com/greek/agio__40.htm

Take Galatians as a example, not one mention of holy spirit. Led by spirit?

Edgar Foster said...

I've learned that it's not always easy to second guess the ancients. Yeah, some ancient documents contain fables, myths, metaphors and embellishments, but I have no reason to doubt that John subsisted on a diet of locusts and wild honey. Even the document you provided (the link) has limited value in helping us understand John the Baptizer's diet.

As for conflation, sorry but I don't see it. In some contexts, spirit and holy spirit have the same referent (Matt 4:1). For example, the spirit of God = the holy spirit (Matt 3:16). And when Galatians exhorts Christians to walk by spirit, what other spirit is meant, but the holy spirit? Let's not conflate word and concept as Barr warned (Wort und Begriff). See Galatians 3:2, 3, 5, 14; 4:6, 29. But the concept of a spiritual person is rooted in 1 Cor. 2:10-16.

See https://brill.com/view/journals/pneu/43/3-4/article-p501_18.xml

Compare Galatians 5:22-23.

Edgar Foster said...

Regarding the eating of locusts, see https://www.researchgate.net/publication/289726192_Did_John_the_Baptist_Eat_like_a_Former_Essene_Locust-eating_in_the_Ancient_Near_East_and_at_Qumran

Duncan said...

You say, look at this letter and that letter. But this is the letter to the Galatians and nowhere does it us the term "holy spirit" , so the Galatians never get the memo.

"What other spirit"? Wrong question.

https://biblehub.com/text/leviticus/26-3.htm

Here god's spirit is concrete.

I see no reason to think that Galatians 3:2 is not talking about Halakha, of which Paul was very familiar even if the term may be anachronistic.

Duncan said...

Yes, many ate locust and honey, but only locust and honey, locust all year?

I think my point is quite valid.

Like you say "synonymous", I see no reason scripturally to think that this is a precise meaning rather than something more generalised.

As the article states - "That John himself ate of grasshoppers/locusts from time to time is entirely plausible", and I agree but he ate other bush fare too.

Edgar Foster said...

First, all of my references were from Galatians except 3 (two from Matthew and one from 1 Cor.) I disagree that they never got the memo. A writer does not have to say "holy spirit" to mean holy spirit: they use other terms which overlap in meaning/reference. As the material I linked shows, there is plenty of pneumatological discussion in Galatians. :-)

The reason I said what other spirit could be meant is because contextually, God's spirit fits perfectly as indicated by the verses I cited from Galatians. I obviously think the question is both fine and apropos.

Excuse me, but where does Lev. 26:3 say anything abut God's holy spirit/spirit? Secondly, it's a different literary and historical context anyway.

1) I see no contextual reason to bring in Halakah in this instance, and it is clearly anachronistic as you say.

2) Paul implied that the Galatians "received" the spirit, which sounds like the Pentecost experience and other cases of Christians having the spirit poured out upon them. To me, it's more natural than suggesting Halakah as the referent.

Edgar Foster said...

Okay, I will concede that it's a good point about John eating these things from time to time. But you asked whether he was content when eating them, or content with them. I still say he and the ancient prophets learned to be content/self-sufficient on little (modest fare).

Duncan said...

To "walk" by spirit has no connection to Leviticus 26:3 and no one would recognise a connection a connection at the time?

Also, for Daniel

At that time, your people will be rescued, >>>all who are found inscribed in the book<<<.

But you, Daniel, keep the words secret, >>>and seal the book<<< until the time of the end. Many will range far and wide and knowledge will increase.

Which book?

https://biblehub.com/text/exodus/17-14.htm

Book of life and book of death.

Who will live and who will die?

Edgar Foster said...

Duncan,

I asked a rhetorical question about Lev. 26:3, but I did not say "to walk by spirit" has no connection with the verse although I do believe the two context (Galatians and Leviticus) are different. Secondly, my point was that the verse in Leviticus nowhere mentions the spirit or walking by spirit.

Again, my comments about the book pertained to Daniel 12:4 since you cited the verse and mentioned the roving in that passage. Are the books the same? While I see a connection between the book in which many would rove about and the sealed book, the book with names contained in it might be different. Just like the books opened in Daniel 7 when the Son of Man approaches the Ancient of Days.

Edgar Foster said...

Regarding Daniel 12:4:

Gabriel was not predicting a mere surge in scientific “knowledge,” and so forth, in the last days. The article appears with “knowledge” (lit., “the knowledge”), showing that a particular kind of “knowledge” was intended, that is, when and how Daniel's message is to be fulfilled. As the time of fulfillment draws nearer, the “wise” will seek to comprehend these prophecies more precisely, and God will grant understanding (“knowledge”) to them.

Miller, Stephen B. Daniel: An Exegetical and Theological Exposition of Holy Scripture: 18 (The New American Commentary) (Kindle Locations 6394-6397). B&H Publishing Group. Kindle Edition.

Duncan said...

Leviticus nowhere mentions the spirit or walking by spirit. And Galatians nowhere uses "holy spirit".

But take a look at https://blogs.timesofisrael.com/the-torah-the-holy-spirit-and-grace/

John the Baptizer was on walkabout, Jesus was on walkabout for 40 days, but never really stopped after that.

This has nothing to do with "science" , again, an anachronistic term. However they clearly had there connection to the midbar.

Duncan said...

https://youtube.com/shorts/FZTadq5FrRU?feature=share

Duncan said...

It may also be useful to review the Geneva bible (the actual protestant bible, as opposed to the KJV) with its marginal notes for Daniel 12.

Edgar Foster said...

There is a difference between Lev. 26:3 and Galatians: the letter does use the word "spirit," but the verse does not. Galatians 5:22 speaks of the spirit's fruit/fruitage. Yes, it does not say holy spirit, but that's likely what's meant. The Bible sometimes just calls God's holy spirit, spirit.

The term science is anachronistic? 😀

I normally use the online Geneva Bible. Will take a look later.

Edgar Foster said...

Re. the times of Israel blog:

I have not read the whole blog article/entry yet, but I already disagree with the first part and subsequent parts of the writer's claims. Plus she wants to hold onto law and read it into the NT epistles.

Are Wisdom and the spirit of God the same? In a certain sense, the connection is plausible, but I would be very slow to accept the idea, if I ever believed it at all.

Duncan said...

"Gabriel was not predicting a mere surge in scientific knowledge" and why would he? This is what I meant by anachronistic.

I still maintain that there is plenty of evidence in the bible and elsewhere that the ancients understood earth systems (we call it ecology) much of which was lost for the majority, but it is being now rediscovered out of nessesity.

Spirit can only be expressed as action. Is intention spirit in the Hebraic sense? I don't see it myself. Holy spirit is there to initiate actions. Correct actions - isn't that true Torah and it's purpose.

Duncan said...

https://www.biblicalarchaeology.org/daily/ancient-cultures/daily-life-and-practice/the-enduring-symbolism-of-doves/

Duncan said...

https://www.abarim-publications.com/Meaning/Torah.html

To anyone who is not familiar with these things, seeing a dove descend on someone (MATTHEW 3:16) is cute at best. For someone who sees the linguistic connection between Law and dove, this is all quite a bit more profound.

Edgar Foster said...

The reason I supplied the quote about Dan. 12:4 is to show that general knowledge is not at play but rather scriptural knowledge, particularly, from the book of Daniel. As for "science," the word/concept is quite old, so I don't view it as anachronistic at all. The ancient Babylonians, Greeks, and Romans all knew what "science" was. Aristotle talked about episteme in his writings, which comes across in German with Wissenschaft(en). I think science is far from being a modern/contemporary term or practice only.

There is no doubt that the ancient knew something about earth systems, but I have refused to call it "ecology" until now because that term does seem anachronistic. I guess one could say that the ancients practiced a rudimentary form of ecology, but some things can't be done without the tools/devices that we now have such as telescopes, microscopes, and triple-beam balances, etc. That is why biology as such did not exist in antiquity though astronomy did. Aristotle did practice biology and write about it, but it's a far cry from modern biology. And forget cosmology.

"Spirit" is a polyvalent term. Why restrict the term to the Hebraic sense? I think that the Hebraic and Greek terms as used in the Bible communicate similar/the same ideas, but both languages are vehicles for concepts.

Torah is a polyvalent term as well, but whatever you mean by the word, I like to maintain a distinction between God's spirit (i.e., the holy spirit) and Torah which is a product of the holy spirit or expression of the spirit. For me, Torah is the written Word of YHWH, and the spoken Word articulated in the first five books of Moses. It is teaching, instruction and I would contend, "divine law." Jehovah teaches by means of his spirit (Psalm 143:10), but I see a distinction between the spirit of God and the Torah of YHWH.

Lastly, the spirit of God descended in the form of a dove, not that it was a dove, but likely resembled one. I don't know that we should read too much into the language, but it's important.

Edgar Foster said...

Etymology of Torah:

https://www.encyclopedia.com/philosophy-and-religion/judaism/judaism/torah

Duncan said...

https://blog.oup.com/2012/05/its-ecology-not-environmental-science/

Duncan said...

http://www.columbia.edu/~lnp3/mydocs/culture/emerald_forest.htm

Duncan said...

I don't see reductionist science as ecology. It is probably a polar opposite. That's probably why all the nations to which you refer did a good jobs of degrading there environments. Learning how to use materials is also a good way of thinking how to exploit those materials and that which surrounds them. Those who have been formed in a culture of ecology would not have been impressed with "science" IMOH.

Permaculture is seen as the glue "between" the sciences that uncovers the lack of connections and true usefulness of most of it, again, IMHO.

Duncan said...

Jesus spirit form being a dove but those in the upper room had tongues as of fire. Oh, I think it is very important. Both lukan descriptions.

Duncan said...

Psalm 143:10 - the structure of Hebraic verse. I think that agrees rather than contradicts my point. CF Psalm 25:4. A path is only of relevance when it is walked.

Duncan said...

https://youtu.be/o4ZsQ8J3dmc

Compare this with the OUP blog. This is science but not in the way you have categorised it.

Edgar Foster said...

My point about the ancients and even in the middle ages, they had a braod view of what constitutes science. For Aristotle, science (episteme) is about production, ethics/politics, and speculative thought (philosophy, theology, mathematics/geometry)--Aristotle even dissected animals and studied the heavens, but he did not have the right equipment to discover what Galileo and Hubble discovered. At any rate, I don't think many of the early scientists were reductionistic at all.

I may have not been clear about this point, but I too think the dove and tongues of fire symbols are important, but I believe we should resists reading too much into them. Or we need to be careful about speculating on what they represent.

Again, the reason I cited Psalm 143:10 was because it mentions God's spirit (it does not say "holy spirit") and David wants this "spirit" to lead him in the way of righteousness: so I don't think the spirit is the path but it can lead us on the path--keep us on tha path of righteousness. But path is metaphorical just like walking as in Noah walked with the true God. A person can walk with God even if they're bedridden. Thw walking is figurative like the path.

Duncan said...

https://bigthink.com/thinking/aristotle-didnt-invent-modern-science/

Duncan said...

NKJV- Teach me to do Your will, For You are my God; Your Spirit is good. Lead me in the land of uprightness.

Duncan said...

I think Hebrews 11:5 explains what walked with God means.

Edgar Foster said...

Just some brief points of clarification:

1) I don't think I said nor would I claim that Aristotle invented modern science. In fact, my point was that he had a broader view of science than moderns do, but he was certainly a precursor for modern science, even if he did not invent it. Furthermore, some time ago, I posted an entry which showed that Galileo demolished Aristotle's scientific views. The same could be said for other scientific efforts of the 20th-21st centuries.

2) On Psalm 143:10, it seems to me that the spirit is not to be equated with the path itself. Rather, David pleads with YHWH to lead him down the path of righteousness by means of the spirit. See Robert Alter's translation of Ps. 143:10. NET understands the spirit to be God's presence but still distinguishes the spirit from the path/road.

3) I wouldn't necessarily disagree with your take on Heb. 11:5, but Genesis 5:24 indicates that Enoch walked with God, then God "took him." So the walking was during his lifetime and I would say (I've read this in the scholarly lit) that his walking was figurative.

Duncan said...

https://biblehub.com/hebrew/orechoteicha_734.htm

How does one travel down multiple paths if life is A path to be walked?

The term "path" is a metaphor. What path does a comet or planet travel along? What makes a metalled track a path? By those who actually travel down it.

See Nehemiah 9:20. Good spirit to instruct them.

Psalm 119:35

Ezekiel 11:19 CF Jeremiah 31:33.

Edgar Foster said...

Earlier above, I did write that the path is figurative or metaphorical and metaphors can be viewed from multiple perspectives.

In my view, the path and walk are figurative, but they're distinct and so is the spirit. Jehovah instructs by means of his spirit: it leads one in the right spiritual direction, but it's not the direction itself. See 1 Corinthians 2:10.

Life is also a journey, but we are distinct from the journey we undertake.

Edgar Foster said...

Jesus taught that the spirit of truth would lead his disciples into all the truth. Again, the spirit is the instrument.

Edgar Foster said...

See https://www.google.com/url?sa=i&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0CAMQw7AJahcKEwiwipHSqZ36AhUAAAAAHQAAAAAQAg&url=http%3A%2F%2Flibrary.mibckerala.org%2Flms_frame%2FeBook%2FThe%2520Concept%2520of%2520Spirit_%2520A%2520Study%2520%2520-%2520Marie%2520E.%2520Isaacs.pdf&psig=AOvVaw02ds_9PidObvqTv5WakIy1&ust=1663555583559081

M. Isaacs, Concept of the Spirit.

Duncan said...

Can't download that last link.

John 16:13 - He will not speak on his own; >>>he will speak only what he hears<<<, >>>and he will tell you what is yet to come.<<<

So this spirit can hear and can speak, is this just an active force?

Galatians 4:6 - what is the spirit of his son?

1 Corinthians 2:10 - the spirit searches the depths of God? Why would it and to do what?

IMO the spirit in the NT is still a teacher.

"Life is also a journey, but we are distinct from the journey we undertake." Not sure about that.

No goal is ever a truly end goal. We can only do, this is our purpose. Our journey is also part our parents and children's journey. We all journey. Even if we seem inert we are never in a vacuum.

"We are what we eat". Literally and metaphorically, we do eat. Every action is part of the journey. There is great depth to this and I do not know where one can draw a line of distinction that separates someone from the journey.

Duncan said...

Just watched this.

https://youtube.com/shorts/dreHvsvXR9c?feature=share

It's interesting but not entirely correct. The land also moves in the bulge. Otherwise we would be flooded twice a day. A method of growing food called aquaponics uses the principle that water rises and falls in the ground allowing plant roots to drink and breathe. The point is that the ground and all life in it have spirit / wind. Our planet is on a path and a journey, it breathes. It also breathes the seasons and day and night. Everything around us is also the journey.

Edgar Foster said...

I'm sure you've heard Trinitarian arguments based on John 16:13. It also describes the spirit as "he," as one man once told me. And a "he" ain't no active force either! On a more serious note, the verse requires lots of work before one concludes that the spirit is personal or masculine. In the Hebrew Bible, YHWH speaks to the prophets through the holy spirit/spirit; in Acts, Christ Jesus speaks through the spirit, so I would not automatically conclude that the spirit is a person/personal.

In Galatians 4:6, I believe the spirit of God's Son is the holy spirit. Remember when Jesus poured out the holy spirit on the 120 at Pentecost? It was holy spirit, which ultimately emanated from his Father. The same spirit cries, "abba!"

Reading the context of 1 Cor. 2:10 is also helpful. The spirit searches into the deep things of God's wisdom and reveals them to those who have the spirit of God. See 1 Cor. 2:6-8, 12, etc.

Yes, the spirit is a teacher, but it's also a remembrancer, according to GJohn.

Aristotle talks about actions that are end goals (ends in themselves) versus actions that are performed for the sake of something else (instrumental actions). I don't see why some goals can't be ends in themselves. And I feel that my purpose in life is to worship the Creator and give him praise and glory. All of the other stuff is just crumbs on the plate.

I would concur that we're always journeying and will never stop, but IMO, that doesn't conflict with having end goals. All this talk of journey stuff is metaphorical: the fact is that we can have many journeys in a lifetime, with one of those being a spiritual life journey which might be distinguished from a mundane life journey. But a journey is something that I as an agent do, but am I identical with the journey upon which I embark?

As a closing point, I was just thinking about how "life" can refer to something that's concrete or omething that is abstract. The Hebrew Bible speaks of life in both ways. If that's correct, why can't a metaphorical journey be like that?

Duncan said...

Post or not "the Spirit is truth" ????

Duncan said...

https://youtu.be/GehAiCE8MSI

Duncan said...

John 16:13 - is all tied up with Logos. As you know that I have no interest in the trinity or arguments that bat to and fro between battling belief systems.

He/it speaks. He/it relays guidance/teaching from god.

The word became flesh, the Torah became flesh. It breathed, it spoke and more importantly it acted. John 2:13-16 Cf Revelation 18:11-23.

Duncan said...

"For your merchants were the great ones of the earth, because all the nations were deceived by your sorcery."

Edgar Foster said...

You have a very different view of the spirit than the way I look at it. The Torah is holy, righteous and good, but it seems that the thrust of John 1:14, 2:13-16 and 16:13 is not about the Torah and John never says it becomes flesh.

The spirit of God also fills, guides and enables the apostles to even raise people from the dead. Call the spirit what you like, I've never read of the Torah doing some things that the spirit enables, including searching into all things, even the deep things of God.

Duncan said...

https://www.biblegateway.com/verse/en/Wisdom%201%3A4

Duncan said...

https://weekly.israelbiblecenter.com/the-jewish-logos-theology/

In fact, it is not until verse 14 that an innovative idea, though one not contradictory to Judaism, was first introduced with the phrase, “and the Word became flesh.”

Duncan said...

1 Corinthians 2 is about wisdom.

"The person without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God but considers them foolishness, and cannot understand them because they are discerned only through the Spirit."

So we have what appear to be TWO spirits here, or is it one?

Edgar Foster said...

Of the idea of the Word becoming flesh is innovative, then it's new. In Judaism, the Torah tabernacles among humans, but it doesn't become flesh.

I think it's clearly one spirit and Paul affirms this point in 1 Corinthians 12 with his discussion of charismata and the Christian soma.

Duncan said...

"Torah tabernacles among humans, but it doesn't become flesh." Agreed, this is a new creation.

The verse in wisdom sets the pattern for it. It even points out that the vessel has to be sinless.

Mat 12:44,45 which I also believe is not literal, but the point from wisdom is reconfirmed.

Duncan said...

https://www.bibleref.com/John/4/John-4-24.html

Duncan said...

https://biblehub.com/1_john/5-6.htm

Duncan said...

IMO, you are looking and not seeing,
https://biblehub.com/text/1_corinthians/12-8.htm

Duncan said...

How do they distinguish between spirits (12:10). Nothing here about spirit beings or demons and if that's how you read it you are reading your own ideas into the text.

Edgar Foster said...

The looking but not seeing can work both ways, Duncan. We're going way around the barn IMO but I do want to address one thing you mentioned. You asked whether the spirit in 1 Corinthians 2:10-12 is one spirit or two. It's the spirit of God mentioned in those verses, so why should we conclude there are two instead of one? Later, as you cite above from 1 Cor. 12:8, the apostle mentions the same/one spirit of God. I never said this has anything to do with spirit beings or demons or angels, for that matter, but I'm talking about the spirit of God (i.e., the holy spirit).

1 Cor. 12:10 is a different matter altogether: the word there is plural and does not refer to the holy spirt or to spirit beings. See 1 John 4:1ff. But I was focusing on "the spirit/spirit (of God)" and not "spirits (plural). For what I was trying to emphasize, see https://biblehub.com/text/1_corinthians/12-11.htm

I see no reason to think Paul had more than one spirit in mind in 1 Cor. 2:10. The word "spirit" must be understood per the context of usage.

Edgar Foster said...

I also just can't see how John 1:14 is talking about anything other than Jesus Christ becoming human as the Logos enfleshed (pace the unitarians). And 1 John 5:6 distinguishes Jesus from the spirit, which he himself does in GJohn.

Duncan said...

For 1 John 4:1 it is referring to false prophets, what is spoken. So what is a spirit here, is it some third party or the expressions?

Duncan said...

You know that when you were pagans >>>somehow or other you were influenced and led astray to *mute* idols<<<. 3 Therefore I want you to know that no one >>who is speaking by the Spirit<<< of God says.

Edgar Foster said...

NWT has rendered these instances as inspired utterances, which I believe is correct. David Aune wrote extensively on the subject too with similar renderings from what I recall.

Edgar Foster said...

See https://fosterheologicalreflections.blogspot.com/2019/07/aune-and-soards-explain-1-corinthians.html?m=1

Duncan said...

How can they be "inspired", isn't that the word at 2 Tim 3:16?

Duncan said...

https://www.openbible.info/labs/cross-references/search?q=1+Timothy+4%3A1

So is this prophecy or is it supposed to be quoting an existing prophecy?

Edgar Foster said...

How can the utterances at 1 John 4:1 be inspired? Or at 1 Cor. 12:10? See Rev. 16:14 and the relevant commentaries, monographs and lexica. An utterance can be inspired by God or by unclean spirits (demons): not all prophetic utterances emanate from the same source. The word at 2 Timothy 3:16 is not simply "inspired," but "inspired of God" or "God-breathed." The word pneuma, however, may sometimes signify "inspired utterances." That is how we might translate the word in those instances, but that's more of a rendering and what the word might signify in certain settings.

Are you asking about 1 Tim. 4:1? From my research on the verse before, I don't think it's quoting a prophecy. However, it could be summarizing a number of texts without exactly quoting anyone of them, and I would say the verses from Timothy (1 Tim. 4:1; 2 Tim. 3:1-5) qualify as prophecies. Why not look at them that way?

Duncan said...

I can come back to this but I need to look at:-

https://repository.uwtsd.ac.uk/id/eprint/710/1/Barnes%252C%2520Mark%2520%25282012%2529The%2520Gift%2520of%2520Prophecy%2520in%2520the%2520New%2520Covenant.%25202.pdf

Duncan said...

pg 90 of note.

Edgar Foster said...

As I understand p. 90, it is not saying that the "Spirit" is identical to the laws of YHWH, but rather that when YHWH's "Spirit" indwells his people, then his laws will also be internalized. P. 91 states:

"The point, it seems, is that with the indwelling of the Spirit,261 will come the
internalisation of the law, and an intimate, immediate, personal knowledge of God."

So the writer is saying that it's one infusion, but two things infused or God's laws are infused by his "Spirit." But that does not make the laws equivalent/identical to the ruach/pneuma of God.

Duncan said...

Hebrews 10:16. These "laws" are internalised and have very little to do with "heaven" and everything to do with earth. It's not a duel infusion, that makes no sense. The spirit is the teaching, the motivation to find will and is building the teaching. That can only be done with motivation. Is learning separate from motivation? I suppose it can be if it is not wisdom. The teaching then becomes the new scrolls. I am inclined to think it is a knowledge of what God truly wants from us as opposed to a personal knowledge of God which is always going to be limited by any measure.

This reminds me of Ehrmans lecture series, regarding what is god and what God has. Eg. Wisdom. Like they are two separate things

I have ordered-
Knowing the Holy Spirit Through the Old Testament - Wright, Christopher J.H.

Will see what he had to say.

Duncan said...

Some more verses come to mind.

2 Sam 23:1 & 2. This probably has some bearing on Gjohn prologue too.

Mark 12:3 - David said IN the spirit.

Compare https://biblehub.com/text/2_samuel/23-2.htm with https://biblehub.com/text/zechariah/4-1.htm.

Edgar Foster said...

I just don't think the "spirit is teaching" approach does justice to the many passages about God's spirit. The spirit implants God's law, so I'm not necessarily saying there are two infusions, but rather, the laws are infused through the holy spirit. So that can be viewed as one infusion.

The spirit moved men to write, and it searches into the deep things of God. The spirit also led Jesus into the wilderness where he was tempted by the devil. Are we supposed to believe that all of these things just referred to divine teaching? What also about the spirit being poured out at Pentecost, and God's spirit being grieved by disobedience? See Isaiah 63:10; Ephesians 4:30.

You lost me with Mark 12:3 :-)

Compare Zechariah 4:6; Ephesians 2:18, 22; Titus 3:5-6.

Duncan said...

A couple of things from page 126.

127 ‘There is another who bears witness’ (5:32) could refer to the Spirit, but commentators are almost united in concluding it refers to the Father. E.g. Leon Morris, The Gospel According to John (NICNT; Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 19952), 287-288; Köstenberger, John, 191; Raymond E. Brown, The Gospel According to John (I-XII) (AB 29; New York: Doubleday, 1966), 224. Von Wahlde suggests John the Baptist, Urban C. von Wahlde, The Gospel and Letters of John, 3 vols. (Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 2010), 2:248.

128 So in 3:34 John explains why Jesus is able to bear (prophetic) witness: ‘For he whom God has sent utters the words of God, for he [the Father] gives the Spirit without measure.’

For the second point this looks like a Hebraism and is likening to the creation of man. The father gives the breath without measure to speak the words of God.

For Mark 12:3 the translation of IN vs BY are quite different.

It is also interesting that the model prayer does not call on spirit. In the sermon Jesus does speak of those poor in spirit, which seems more likely to indicate illness.

Mat 3:11 is this the Pentecost experience written after the fact?

To me, spirit and holy spirit are two separate categories, in most cases.

Duncan said...

For zech 4:6 compare https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seven_Spirits_of_God

Also Ecclesiastes 8:8 - the breath returns to Jehovah.

2 Thessalonians 2:8.

It does seem likely that the Pauline focus is on the Pentecost experience. Speaking with the breath, whatever that actually means.

Edgar Foster said...

I really don't understand how Mark 12:3 fits into this whole discussion. I looked it up in NWT and other translations. ESV reads this way: "And they took him and beat him and sent him away empty-handed."

Where is IN or BY?

Of course, spirit and holy spirit may be different, but not always. Context determines whether the meaning is breath, spirit, wind, etc.

John 3:5-8; 7:37-39.

Duncan said...

https://biblehub.com/text/mark/12-36.htm

Is the holy spirit a Ventriloquist?

https://biblehub.com/greek/didaxei_1321.htm



Duncan said...

For John 3 see page 86ff - His message is that the work of the Spirit will cause >>the word of Yahweh<< to become more significant in the lives of the people

Duncan said...

For the idea of the spirit leading Jesus into the wilderness, see psalms 143:9-12.

"Good wind"

Duncan said...

In Mark it is more like Jesus was blown by the wind into the wilderness. 2 kings 2:1.

Edgar Foster said...

Based on Mark 1:9-11, I would not reduce the pneuma there to "wind." This pneuma descended upon Jesus and it empowered him to resist the devil and to perform miracles, including to raise the dead. Christ did not merely have wind settle upon him: he was anointed with holy spirit and power at that time (Acts 10:38). Furthermore, the ruach YHWH is also often linked with the power of God.

The spirit of YHWH does make God's Word more significant in people's lives, but is that a reason to identify/conflate the two things?

Duncan said...

See the Egyptian shu & maat.

John 16:13

More hermetica.

Duncan said...

https://iseumsanctuary.com/2020/12/29/the-feather-of-maat-and-shu/

https://www.britannica.com/topic/Maat-Egyptian-goddess

Whatever the feather means, it is not arbitrary or general. The two are linked together.

Numbers 11:25 - taking spirit from one to put on another, but is this like a Duracell battery?

Luke 8:46

Edgar Foster said...

To answer your question, no, I don't think taking spirit from Moses to put upon the seventy is like a Duracell battery. The main point is probably showing the link between Moses and the seventy men who become prophets, plus it's likely power that is being given to these men by means of the spirit. Similarly in the case of Jesus, power through the spirit leaves him. Note how the KJV handles the Greek.

I've seen books compare the holy spirit to electricity that issues forth from a power plant to supply a city with energy. Of course, we must allow room for analogical, metaphorical or figurative uses of words.

Edgar Foster said...

Personally, I believe that Shu and Maat have very little to do with John's Gospel or the biblical spirit of Jehovah (YHWH)

Duncan said...

The problem as I see it lies with Job 34:14. Something that all living things have. Not something sent out. At least from this verse.

Duncan said...

Numbers 11:26-29 is very interesting when compared with Mark 9:38-40. I had not noticed this before. Moses last remark is also an interesting leading into Pentecost.

Edgar Foster said...

For one thing, Job 34:14 isn't speaking about the holy spirit per se, but rather the ruach (spirit) mentioned in Psalm 146:3-4 and Psalm 104:30 (I believe). Not all beings have the holy spirit of God operative upon them, but all do have the spirit which returns to God at death (Eccl. 12:7).

According to the Psalms, God does initially send out his spirit to enliven creation/people, but it returns to him when we die. But none of this directly bears on the spirit of God (i.e., the holy spirit).

Another thing to consider is that Job 34:14 looks like a counterfactual statement anyway: if God did X, then Y would happen. But there are many places in the Bible where the spirit is sent out, including at Pentecost. However, we must distinguish which spirit God sends forth.

Duncan said...

Since the term holy spirit only appears in the time of David I would hardly call that conclusive especially when it it read into verses like Genesis 1:2.

Duncan said...

For "spirit of yehovah" 2 Kings 2:16 needs to be taken into account.

Edgar Foster said...

We can tell whether the holy spirit is being discussed by appeal to context and descriptions that a speaker uses. According to the Bible, not all humans have the holy spirit and while YHWH uses the holy spirit to inspire prophecy and to create, the spirit that returns to God is not the holy spirit, nor is the holy spirit the subject of Ps. 146:3-4. But it seems clear from the context that the verse in Job is likely counterfactual and it's not talking about the spirit of YHWH. I.e., the holy spirit.

Additionally, the Bible can talk about the holy spirit without using those exact words. I've also written about Gen. 1:2 on this blog and discussed the main issues attending that verse.

I agree that 2 Kings 2:16 is important to consider.

Gotta go to work.

Edgar Foster said...

Also see Term " Spirit Old Testament - Biblical Studies.org.uk

Edgar Foster said...

NET Bible Ftn on Job 34:14:

Or perhaps “Spirit,” though this may be less likely in close proximity with “breath.” As a reference to the human spirit cf. Ps. 104:29; as a reference to God’s Spirit originating with him, cf. Ps 104:30.

EF: Either way, it allows for God's Spirit/spirit initially going out from him.