"And when she had weaned him, she took him up with her, with three bullocks, and one ephah of flour, and a bottle of wine, and brought him unto the house of the LORD in Shiloh: and the child was young" (1 Samuel 1:24 KJV).
"and she causeth him to go up with her when she hath weaned him, with three bullocks, and one ephah of flour, and a bottle of wine, and she bringeth him into the house of Jehovah at Shiloh, and the youth is but a youth" (YLT).
"As soon as she had weaned him, she took him up to Shi′loh, along with a three-year-old bull, one e′phah of flour, and a large jar of wine, and she came to the house of Jehovah in Shi′loh and brought the young boy with her" (NWT).
"And after she had weaned him, she carried him with her, with three calves, and three bushels of flour, and a bottle of wine, and she brought him to the house of the Lord in Silo. Now the child was as yet very young" (Douay-Rheims).
Was there one bull or three? Textual evidence from the LXX, DSS and Syriac versions suggests that there was only one bull brought to Shiloh.
See https://www.jstor.org/stable/42707299
12 comments:
4Q51 is quite specific - "a three year old bull, the son of a cow"
Its a pity they we do not have a DSS example of Genesis 29:2.
Duncan, that is specific. Is there a reason why you have an interest in Genesis 29:2? I just wonder if you've come across any textual issues for the verse.
Nothing specific but is there any other reason to think that it was literally 3 flocks. I think 3 takes on another meaning in Genesis.
https://biblehub.com/text/genesis/40-16.htm
How does one have three baskets on ones head? Maybe a large basket? & maybe many sheep.
I don't know, Duncan. Victor Hamilton writes about Gen. 40:16:
"In that dream he has three baskets stacked on top of each other,
with the most delicious baked goods packed in the top basket. That he is not able to shoo the birds away, as did Abram (15:11), seems generally self-explanatory; that is, the dream seems to bode ill for the baker."
I think we have to remember that it is a dream being reported and weird things happen in dreams.
https://biblehub.com/hebrew/haelyon_5945.htm
Does this explain 3?
And https://biblehub.com/text/genesis/40-17.htm ends in the singular.
This could be translated as - at the top of the basket.
It is the baked goods that are plural in that verse.
Like the paper I just posted on the following thread many parts of language are not so straight forward as it would be liked. The one regarding the seed needing to die. I had talked about this a little while ago, and again someone with more time spotted the same thing had written a paper on it.
And IMHO that why I will not rely on commentaries and opinions. There is no substitute for knowing how the terms can be used by reading them & I am not pushing to say that my opinion is any better, but these other opinions don't discount it.
So "I don't know" is a good response.
1) Another way to read Genesis 40:17 is that it's referring to the uppermost/top basket of three. That's why we have the singular form in that verse much like someone might talk about the top cup in a stack of three cups.
2) I believe/observed that words and grammatical structures have possible meanings: some understandings of texts are more likely than others but sometimes, it's hard to go one way or the other.
3) I don't see myself as relying on commentaries or opinions of learned men: I consult them and report that the works say. Some I agree with but I disagree with other commentaries/opinions. However, there are times when a view is so improbable that it becomes almost impossible.
4) I believe the "light" always gets brighter and will continue to get brighter as we approach the telos of this world. Yet, lots of factors go into trying to understand a text rightly. One thing is for sure: none of us come to a correct understanding on our own. See 1 Cor. 4:7.
Nahum Sarna, Genesis, p. 279:
[Genesis 40:17]-"uppermost basket Only the contents of this one are described because it is the one accessible to the birds."
Note from NET: tn Or “three wicker baskets.” The meaning of the Hebrew noun חֹרִי (khori, “white bread, cake”) is uncertain; some have suggested the meaning “wicker” instead. Comparison with texts from Ebla suggests the meaning “pastries made with white flour” (M. Dahood, “Eblaite ḫa-rí and Genesis 40, 16 ḥōrî,” BN 13 [1980]: 14-16).
See also Genesis 40:18.
That is all based on the assumption that "3 days" actually means 3 days, just as 40 days and 40 nights actually means 40 days and 40 nights and not some hebric phrase that means a long period of time.
Here is one answer to that question - The number 40 shows up often in the Bible. Because 40 appears so often in contexts dealing with judgment or testing, many scholars understand it to be the number of “probation” or “trial.” This doesn’t mean that 40 is entirely symbolic; it still has a literal meaning in Scripture. “Forty days” means “forty days,” but it does seem that God has chosen this number to help emphasize times of trouble and hardship.
I see no reason to agree with the last statement based on overall usage. I see no reason to opt for the literal in any case.
My point in citing Gen. 40:18, which I didn't make clear, was to show that the writer of Genesis likely meant 3 baskets rather than just 1. Of course, 3 baskets are said to signify 3 days. While I cede your point about 40, I see no reason to question a literal 3 days in 40:18. Why question it, and we're talking about when this man would meet his end. Plus the account is relating a dream. Lastly, I think more than assumptions are in play here. What about how the Hebrew reads?
And Jonah in the fish for 3 days and 3 nights.
One only has to scrutinise the list -
https://biblehub.com/hebrew/sheloshet_7969.htm
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