Monday, May 02, 2011

Justin Martyr on the Anonymous God of Christianity and Judaism

The ancient writer Justin Martyr contends that
God does not have a personal name. He is not
alone in his belief that God is anonymous.

Justin Martyr's comments are probably rhetorical or
somewhat hyperbolic. However, he still thought that
it was quite grave to name the (putatively) ineffable
and anonymous God. C. C. Richardson writes concerning
the Martyr's attitude toward the nameless God:

"Justin was aware that the Old Testament divine name
was used for magical purposes (as Iao and the like),
and hence his vigorous condemnation of a practice he
considers not only wrong (as all Jews would) but
impossible."

See C. C. Richardson, Fathers, 283.

Justin himself writes: "And all the Jews even now
teach that the nameless
God spoke to Moses" (Apology 1.63).

For the Martyr, the only expression that fittingly
describes deity is hO WN:

"For God cannot be called by any proper name, for
names are given to mark out and distinguish their
subject-matters, because these are many and diverse;
but neither did any one exist before God who could
give Him a name, nor did He Himself think it right to
name himself, seeing that he is one and unique, as he
himself also by His own prophets testifies, when He
says, 'I God am the first,' and after this, 'And
beside me there is no other God.' On this account,
then, as I before said, God did not, when He sent
Moses to the Hebrews, mention any name, but by a
participle he mystically teaches them that he is the
one and only God. 'For,' says he; 'I am the Being,'
manifestly contrasting Himself, 'the Being,' with
those who are not, that those who had hitherto been
deceived might see that they were attaching
themselves, not to beings, but to those who had no
being" (Hortatory Address to the Greeks, 21).

22 comments:

Alexander R Pruss said...

Thanks for this extended quote!

This divine namelessness was something a number of early Christians put an emphasis on, I think. I blogged a few such quotes here (and reflected a little more here). There is also a quote from St Attalus the martyr that "God has no name as a man has" (I think I came across this in Eusebius).

Matt13weedhacker said...

Hi Edgar.

I find Justin Martyr highly confusing on this subject. He contradicts himself in a matter of two sentences:

GREEK TEXT: “...( ἐπὶ ) τοῖς ἡμαρτημένοις τὸ τοῦ πατρὸς τῶν ὅλων καὶ δεσπότου θεοῦ ὄνομα, αὐτὸ τοῦτο ( μόνον ) ἐπιλέγοντος τοῦ τὸν λουσόμενον ἄγοντος ( ἐπὶ ) τὸ λουτρόν...” - (Chapter 61:10(B)-13; Justinus Apologia or Τοῦ ἁγίου Ἰουστίνου Ἀπολογία ὑπὲρ Χριστιανῶν πρὸς Ἀντωνῖνον τὸν Εὐσεβῆ. Edition. E. J. Goodspeed) Die ältesten Apologeten, Göttingen: Vandenhoeck & Ruprecht, 1915, 26–77.)

JUSTIN MARTYR (c. 110 to 160 C.E.): “...and may obtain in the water remission of sins which we have before committed, THE ( NAME ) OF GOD THE FATHER AND LORD OF THE UNIVERSE – IS - ( PRONOUNCED ) OVER HIM who is willing to be born again, and hath repented of his sins ; he who leads him to be washed in the laver of baptism, - ( saying this only ) - over him...” - (Chapter 61:10(B)-13; 1st Apology “A Translation Of The Epistles Of Clement Of Rome, Polycarp, And Ignatius And Of The Apologies Of Justin Martyr And Tertullian” By the Rev. Temple Chevallier, B. D. 2nd Edition 1851.)

Then in the next breath he says God is un-namable.

Yet he just says the "God" the Father has a name and is used and pronounced at baptism!

It is a contradiction and very hard to fathom.

Matt13weedhacker said...

Hi Edgar.

The primary influence on Justins doctrine on "God" being UN-nameable is clear in the passage below:


JUSTIN MARTYR (c. 110 to 160 C.E.): “...PLATO having heard, in Egypt, that God had said to Moses, when he was about to send him to the Hebrews, [Exo 3:14] I am the Being (Gk., ho oon) – understood that God had not told him his peculiar name, for no name can be ( properly ) attributed to God...” - (Page 159. Coh. Ad Gr. Chapter 20. Justin Martyr His Life, Writings, and Opinions by the Rev. Charles Semisch translated from German by J. E. Ryland. Vol II. 1843.)

PLATO!

Edgar Foster said...

Alex,

You're welcome. I have documented occurrences of where early Christians contended that God is (metaphysically speaking) anonymous. My dissertation has a section on texts which make this claim as well as why they believed that God the Father does not have a proper name. I'm now at the type-setting and editing stage for my work. Maybe it will be published within the next year or so. But I'll read your links and the quote from Attalus is also interesting.

Best wishes,

Edgar

Edgar Foster said...

Matt13,

The text in Justin does seem hard to understand, although I believe he is fairly consistent in this matter, when one thoroughly examines his literary corpus. First, Justin seems to believe that God does not have a proper name (metaphysically speaking) but there are terms we can use to address God. A similar idea is found in Plato's Cratylus and Philo espouses similar notions (partly taken from Plato). But Justin writes: "For no one can utter the name of the ineffable God; and if any one dare to say that there is a name, he raves with a hopeless madness" (1 Apology 61). I'll have to look back at my dissertation to see if anything there can also help.

Matt13weedhacker said...

Hi Edgar.

Sorry to change subject, but could I get your opinion on the following translation - please?

Would you consider it accurate or what would you change?

GREEK TEXT: “...μόνου θεοῦ τοῦ πρό πάντων καὶ ( ἐπὶ ) πάντων καὶ ( ἐπὶ ) τοῦ Χριστοῦ αὐτοῦ ( ὅντως ) θεοῦ λόγου πρό αἰώνων...” - (Melito Apolog. fragm. in the Chron. Pasch. Par. 8-11. Rader's ed.)

(MILETO OF SARDIS c. 110 to 177 C.E.): “...of the (definitive) God (only) [who is] before all things and ( over ) all things and ( over ) His Christ, [who is] truly [the] Logos ( of ) God before [the] ages...” - (Matt13weedhacker 17/4/11)

Apparently the text has been tampered with by Trinitarians; removing the second "OVER" in regard to Christ.

HENRY WACE: “...One extract from the Apology preserved in the Paschal Chronicle (p. 483, Dindorf) gave rise to some discussion in the early Socinian controversy. "We are not worshippers of senseless stones, but adore one only God, Who is before all AND OVER ALL, AND [OVER] HIS CHRIST truly God the Word before all ages." The second "over" given in Rader's ed. of the Chronicle does not appear in the latest ed. (Dindorf's)...” - (Page 720, Mileto. “Dictionary of Christian Biography and Literature to the End of the Sixth Century A.D., with an Account of the Principal Sects and Heresies.”)
http://www.ccel.org/ccel/wace/biodict.html?term=Melito

Edgar Foster said...

μόνου seems to be modifying θεοῦ τοῦ in the Greek. Therefore, I would not change your rendering all that much. I might say "of the only God [I don't think "the" is necessarily required in a translation of the Greek] who is before all things and over all things and over His Christ who is Word of God before the ages."

I've long thought that the text of Melito is corrupt at many places.

Matt13weedhacker said...

Thank you Edgar.

I was mostly concerned about the Gk., ( θεοῦ λόγου ) "...Word ( of ) God..." which is for some reason translated as "...God the Word..." in the Tri{3}nitarian versions. They followed the Latin version I think, which is "...Deo Verbo..."

In Dinsdorfs Latin text it gives yet another variation from the Greek:

LATIN TEXT: “...omnia et ( in ) omnibus, et ( in ) Christo ejus vere Deo Verbo ( ante ) saecula, etc...” - (Melito Apolog. fragm. in the Chron. Pasch. Par. 8-11, Section B. p. 483, Vol 1, Dindorf. ed. CORPUS SCRIPTORUM HISTORAE BYZANTINAE.)

Which is "...( in ) all, and ( in ) Christ..." - giving a further Tri{3}nitarian slant.

Thank you. I always appreciate your help and advice on translation.

Matt13weedhacker said...

I think I have found the source of the following translations:

GREEK TEXT: "...θεοῦ δὲ ἐκ τοῦ εἶναι τέκνον πρωτότοκον τῶν ὅλων κτισμάτων..." - (Dial 125:3; Edition. E. J. Goodspeed) Die ältesten Apologeten, Göttingen: Vandenhoeck & Ruprecht, 1915, 26–77.)

JUSTIN MARTYR (c. 160 C.E.): "...yet He is God..." (Dial 125:3; KET)

JUSTIN MARTYR (c. 160 C.E.): "...yet nevertheless is God..." (Dial 125:3; R&DT)

JUSTIN MARTYR (c. 160 C.E.): "...yet nevertheless he is a child from out of God, the first one of the creatures to be born of the entire universe..." - (Dial. 125:3; MATT13)

I believe they followed the Latin version:

LATIN TEXT: “...eo quad Patris voluntati ministraret, Deus autem est, eo quod filius primogenitus sit omnium creaturarum...” - (Page 445, Dialogus Cum Tryphone Judaeo. Tomus Primus [Book I], Patres Apostolici, COLLECTIO SELECTA SS. ECCLESIAE PATRUM, Complectens Exquisitissima Opera. By D. M. N. S. Guuillon. M. DCCC. XXIX.)

Deus = ( noun singular masculine nominative ) a god, deity, God.
Autem = yet, however, nevertheless etc.
Est = is.

From what I can tell the Codex Paris. Gk. 450. (of the year 1364) is the oldest and best copy of all the manuscripts for Justin Martyr's writings that are known to exist today.

I cannot find (at present) an exact date for the Latin, but from memory I believe it is just a version copied from the Greek above and has been obviously changed.

So In my opinion the Latin does not have as much weight and therefore the Greek takes precedent.

Matt13weedhacker said...

Hi Edgar.

Hows life treating you? All good I hope?

I have something you might find interesting which I came across in my research on Justin Martyr.

It may take a few comment posts, I hope you don't mind?

The first quote (I think) is significant historically concerning the Trinity doctrine.

Justin asks Trypho if he thinks there is (any others) Gk., allon - apart from the Father & Christ who can be "called" god and lord and also "worshipped".

If Justin did indeed worship a Trinity as claimed by Christendom this would be the perfect oppertunity for him to preach the Trinity! You could not get any better! If indeed he was Trinitarian there is no way he would miss this oppertunity to mention that the holy spirit should (also) be an object of joint worship and called "God."

Correct?

I will post the question and (some) context, I will leave it up to you to check the rest of the chapter due to limited space.

There is also translation issues here as well.

Matt13weedhacker said...

First the actual texts themselves:

LATIN TEXT: “...Interroga, inquit Trypo. Num quem alium, inquam, adorandum et Dominum et Deum in Scripturis dici existimatis praeter Creatorem hujus universi et Christum, quem vobis tot ex Scripturis hominem ( factum ) esse demonstravi? Et Trypho: Quomodo id possimus confiteri, cum de eo etiam, an praeter solum Patrem aliquis sit, tantam quaestionem moverimus? Rursum ego: Necesse est id quoque ex vobis scisciter, ut sciam numquid aliud sentiatis praeter id quod modo[?] confessi estis? Nihil omnino, inquit ille. Tum ego: Cum igitur his vere assentiamini, cumque Scriptura dicat...” - (Page 364, Chapter 68:3(b)-4; Dialogus Cum Tryphone Judaeo. Tomus Primus [Book I], Patres Apostolici, COLLECTIO SELECTA SS. ECCLESIAE PATRUM, Complectens Exquisitissima Opera. By D. M. N. S. Guuillon. M. DCCC. XXIX.)
[FOOTNOTE 1]: Esai. LIII, 8.
[FOOTNOTE ?]: Some printed text unclear due to smudging of printed ink on page.

GREEK TEXT: “...Κἀγὼ [3(b).] εἶπον· Μήτι ἄλλον τινὰ προσκυνητὸν καὶ κύριον καὶ θεὸν λεγόμενον ἐν ταῖς γραφαῖς νοεῖτε εἶναι πλὴν τοῦ τοῦτο ποιήσαντος τὸ πᾶν καὶ τοῦ Χριστοῦ, ὃς διὰ τῶν τοσούτων γραφῶν ἀπεδείχθη ὑμῖν ἄνθρωπος γενόμενος;[4.] Καὶ ὁ Τρύφων· Πῶς τοῦτο δυνάμεθα εἶναι ὁμολογῆσαι, ὁπότε, εἰ καὶ ἄλλος τίς ἐστι πλὴν τοῦ πατρὸς μόνου, τὴν τοσαύτην ζήτησιν ἐποιησάμεθα; Κἀγὼ πάλιν· Ἀναγκαῖόν ἐστι καὶ ταῦτα ὑμᾶς ἐρωτῆσαι, ὅπως γνῶ· μήτι ἄλλο φρονεῖτε παρὰ θεῷ; ὁμολογήσατε. Κἀκεῖνος· Οὔ, ἄνθρωπε, ἔφη. Κἀγὼ πάλιν· Ὑμῶν οὖν ταῦτα ἀληθῶς συντιθεμένων καὶ τοῦ λόγου λέγοντος...” - (Dial. Chapter 68:3(B)-4;Justin Martyrs “Dialogue with Trypho a Jew.”Τοῦ ἁγίου Ἰουστίνου πρὸς Τρύφωνα Ἰουδαῖον Διάλογος (Edition. E. J. Goodspeed) Göttingen: Vandenhoeck & Ruprecht, 1915.)

Matt13weedhacker said...

JUSTIN MARTYR (c. 110 to 165 C.E.): “...IS [3(B).] IT YOUR OPINION THAT THERE IS ANY OTHER TO BE WORSHIPPED AND CALLED LORD AND GOD IN THE SCRIPTURES, EXCEPT THE CREATOR OF THE WORLD AND CHRIST, WHO HAS BEEN PROVED TO YOU. BY SO MANY SCRIPTURAL PASSAGES TO HAVE BECOME MAN?" [4] "How could we admit such a statement," asked Trypho, "when in our lengthy discussion it has not been determined whether there is ANY GOD OTHER THAN THE FATHER?" "I must ask this question," I responded, "in order to know whether you hold a different opinion from that which you already admitted." "I do not," he said. "SINCE YOU ADMIT THESE THINGS IN TRUTH," I went on...” - (68:3(B)-4; Justin Matryr's “Dialogue with Trypho a Jew” translated by Kevin Edgecome)

JUSTIN MARTYR (c. 110 to 165 C.E.): “...And Trypho said, "Ask the questions."
Then I said, "DO YOU THINK THAT ANY OTHER ONE IS SAID TO BE WORTHY OF WORSHIP AND CALLED LORD AND GOD IN THE SCRIPTURES, EXCEPT THE MAKER OF ALL, AND CHRIST, WHO BY SO MANY SCRIPTURES WAS PROVED TO YOU TO HAVE BECOME MAN?" And Trypho replied, "How can we admit this, when we have instituted so great an inquiry as to whether there is ANY OTHER THAN THE FATHER ALONE?" Then I again said, "I must ask you this also, that I may know whether or not you are of a different opinion from that which you admitted some time ago." He replied, "It is not, sir." Then again I, "SINCE YOU CERTAINLY ADMIT THESE THINGS, and since Scripture says...” - (CHAPTER LXVIII:3(B)-4; – HE COMPLAINS OF THE OBSTINACY OF TRYPHO; HE ANSWERS HIS OBJECTION; HE CONVICTS THE JEWS OF BAD FAITH. Roberts & Donaldsons ANF)

JUSTIN MARTYR (c. 110 to 165 C.E.): “...Ask them then,” said he. “DO YOU THINK THAT THERE IS ANY OTHER TO BE WORSHIPPED, AND CALLED LORD AND GOD IN SCRIPTURE, EXCEPT WHO CREATED THE UNIVERSE, AND CHRIST, WHO HAS BEEN PROVED BY SO MANY PASSAGES OF SCRIPTURE TO HAVE BEEN MADE MAN?” “How,” said Trypho, “can we say such a thing, since we have held so long a disscussion, as to whether there is ANY OTHER GOD EXCEPT THE FATHER ALONE?” “It is necessary,” I said, “for me to ask you even this, that I may know whether your opinion is different to that which you already admitted?” He said it was not. “As then,” I said, “YOU REALLY AGREE TO THIS and to the Scriptures...” - (Dial. Chapter 68:3(B)-4; The Works Now Extant Of Justin Martyr – A LIBRARY OF THE FATHERS OF THE HOLY CATHOLIC CHURCH: Anterior To The Division Of The East & West – Translated By Members Of The English Church. [1800's])

Matt13weedhacker said...

In the context of the rest of the chapter he does not mention anything about "...the holy spirit..." should be "...called God and Lord..." and should be "...worshipped..."

So he passes the perfect oppertunity of preaching a Trinity of "...God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Spirit..."

Which is telling historically. He in the middle of the Second Century did not believe this doctrine and no doubt neither did any other Christians either.

What is interesting is the use of Gk., ( allos ) meaning "...numerically of the same kind and quality..."

Which would have been perfect for the same substance and equality of being of the Trinity, but, he preaches a differen't doctrine. He uses Gk., ( heteros ) "...another numerically of a different kind and quality..." in regard to Jesus being a theos.

Also he always asserts that the Father is "the (real) Maker" of whom there is "no Gk., ( allos ) besides him" as a constant qualifer is to the same effect.

Trypho's answer of "the Father only" Gk., (monos) and Justin's reply: "...since you admitt these things in truth..." shows again a in-equality with anyone else.

Matt13weedhacker said...

Now the other interesting thing I found was that Four chapters previous to this Trypho makes this remark:

LATIN TEXT: “...Nobis autem, qui Dei, a quo etiam hic ipse factus est...” - (Page 366-367, Chapter 64:1; Dialogus Cum Tryphone Judaeo. Tomus Primus [Book I], Patres Apostolici, COLLECTIO SELECTA SS. ECCLESIAE PATRUM, Complectens Exquisitissima Opera. By D. M. N. S. Guuillon. M. DCCC. XXIX.)

GREEK TEXT: “...τοῦ θεοῦ τοῦ καὶ αὐτὸν τοῦτον ποιήσαντος...” - (Dial. Cahpter 64:1; Justin Martyrs “Dialogue with Trypho a Jew.”Τοῦ ἁγίου Ἰουστίνου πρὸς Τρύφωνα Ἰουδαῖον Διάλογος (Edition. E. J. Goodspeed) Göttingen: Vandenhoeck & Ruprecht, 1915.)

JUSTIN MARTYR (c. 110 to 165 C.E.): “...OF THE GOD WHO CREATED HIM...” - (Dial. Cahpter 64:1; The Works Now Extant Of Justin Martyr – A LIBRARY OF THE FATHERS OF THE HOLY CATHOLIC CHURCH: Anterior To The Division Of The East & West – Translated By Members Of The English Church. [1800's])

JUSTIN MARTYR (c. 110 to 165 C.E.): “...THE GOD WHO MADE HIM...” - (Dial. Chapter 64:1; Kevin Edgecomes Translation)

JUSTIN MARTYR (c. 110 to 165 C.E.): “...OF GOD THAT MADE THIS SAME [CHRIST]...” - (CHAPTER LXIV:I -- JUSTIN ADDUCES OTHER PROOFS TO THE JEW, WHO DENIES THAT HE NEEDS THIS CHRIST. Roberts & Donaldsons ANF)
[PERSONAL NOTE]: Brackets around “Christ” are by R&D not myself.

Why do I mention this?

There's a translation issue in Chapter 68 of the previous post.

I will get back to this soon, got to go now.

Matt13weedhacker said...

Compare this Latin reading:

LATIN TEXT: “...existimatis praeter Creatorem hujus universi et Christum...” - (Page 364, Chapter 68:3(b)-4; Dialogus Cum Tryphone Judaeo. Tomus Primus [Book I], Patres Apostolici, COLLECTIO SELECTA SS. ECCLESIAE PATRUM, Complectens Exquisitissima Opera. By D. M. N. S. Guuillon. M. DCCC. XXIX.)

With the Greek version and see which one the translators follow:

GREEK TEXT: “...εἶναι πλὴν τοῦ τοῦτο ποιήσαντος τὸ πᾶν καὶ τοῦ Χριστοῦ...” - (Dial. Chapter 68:3(B); Justin Martyrs “Dialogue with Trypho a Jew.” Τοῦ ἁγίου Ἰουστίνου πρὸς Τρύφωνα Ἰουδαῖον Διάλογος (Edition. E. J. Goodspeed) Göttingen: Vandenhoeck & Ruprecht, 1915.)

JUSTIN MARTYR (c. 110 to 165 C.E.): “...EXCEPT THE CREATOR OF THE WORLD AND CHRIST...” - (68:3(B)-4; Justin Matryr's “Dialogue with Trypho a Jew” translated by Kevin Edgecome)

JUSTIN MARTYR (c. 110 to 165 C.E.): “...EXCEPT THE MAKER OF ALL, AND CHRIST...” - (CHAPTER LXVIII:3(B)-4; – HE COMPLAINS OF THE OBSTINACY OF TRYPHO; HE ANSWERS HIS OBJECTION; HE CONVICTS THE JEWS OF BAD FAITH. Roberts & Donaldsons ANF)

JUSTIN MARTYR (c. 110 to 165 C.E.): “...EXCEPT WHO CREATED THE UNIVERSE, AND CHRIST...” - (Dial. Chapter 68:3(B)-4; The Works Now Extant Of Justin Martyr – A LIBRARY OF THE FATHERS OF THE HOLY CATHOLIC CHURCH: Anterior To The Division Of The East & West – Translated By Members Of The English Church. [1800's])

It appears they favour the Latin.

I ask why?

Matt13weedhacker said...

LATIN TEXT: “...Nobis autem, qui Dei, a quo etiam hic ipse factus est...” - (Page 366-367, Chapter 64:1; Dialogus Cum Tryphone Judaeo. Tomus Primus [Book I], Patres Apostolici, COLLECTIO SELECTA SS. ECCLESIAE PATRUM, Complectens Exquisitissima Opera. By D. M. N. S. Guuillon. M. DCCC. XXIX.)

GREEK TEXT: “...τοῦ θεοῦ τοῦ καὶ αὐτὸν τοῦτον ποιήσαντος...” - (Dial. Cahpter 64:1; Justin Martyrs “Dialogue with Trypho a Jew.”Τοῦ ἁγίου Ἰουστίνου πρὸς Τρύφωνα Ἰουδαῖον Διάλογος (Edition. E. J. Goodspeed) Göttingen: Vandenhoeck & Ruprecht, 1915.)

JUSTIN MARTYR (c. 110 to 165 C.E.): “...We on the other hand, who are of [the] God, who made this person refered to before exist...” - (Dial. Chapter 64:1; (LATIN VERSION) by Matt13weedhacker 18/5/11)

JUSTIN MARTYR (c. 110 to 165 C.E.): “...of the God of him and Maker of this (one)...” - (Dial. Chapter 64:1; (GREEK VERSION) by Matt13weedhacker 18/5/11)

LATIN TEXT: “...existimatis praeter Creatorem hujus universi et Christum...” - (Page 364, Chapter 68:3(b)-4; Dialogus Cum Tryphone Judaeo. Tomus Primus [Book I], Patres Apostolici, COLLECTIO SELECTA SS. ECCLESIAE PATRUM, Complectens Exquisitissima Opera. By D. M. N. S. Guuillon. M. DCCC. XXIX.)

GREEK TEXT: “...εἶναι πλὴν τοῦ τοῦτο ποιήσαντος τὸ πᾶν καὶ τοῦ Χριστοῦ...” - (Dial. Chapter 68:3(B); Justin Martyrs “Dialogue with Trypho a Jew.” Τοῦ ἁγίου Ἰουστίνου πρὸς Τρύφωνα Ἰουδαῖον Διάλογος (Edition. E. J. Goodspeed) Göttingen: Vandenhoeck & Ruprecht, 1915.)

JUSTIN MARTYR (c. 110 to 165 C.E.): “...to esteem beyond the Creator of this universe and Christ...” - (Dial. Chapter 68:3(B)-4; (LATIN VERSION) Justin Martyrs “Dialogue with Trypho a Jew” by Matt13weedhacker 18/5/11)

JUSTIN MARTYR (c. 110 to 165 C.E.): “...to be ... besides the aforesaid (definitive) Maker of everything and ( of ) the Christ...” - (Dial. Chapter 68:3(B)-4; (GREEK VERSION) Justin Martyrs “Dialogue with Trypho a Jew” by Matt13weedhacker 18/5/11)
[FOOTNOTE]: Gk., ( καὶ τοῦ Χριστοῦ ) is genitive literally: “...also ( of ) the Christ...”

It is the similarity of the Greek that strikes me.

GREEK TEXT: “...τοῦ θεοῦ τοῦ καὶ αὐτὸν τοῦτον ποιήσαντος...” - (Dial. Cahpter 64:1;)

GREEK TEXT: “...εἶναι πλὴν τοῦ τοῦτο ποιήσαντος τὸ πᾶν καὶ τοῦ Χριστοῦ...” - (Dial. Chapter 68:3(B);)

I believe Justin is again saying Jesus has a Gk., ( ποιήσαντος ) “...Maker...”

But in the second case the other translators have followed the Latin Text which is more biased towards the Trinity doctrine.

This appears to a pattern in translations of Justins Dialogue to follow the Latin when it doesn't suit doctrinally.

Edgar Foster said...

Hi Matt13,

Because my time is limited, I cannot interact with each item you have posted on the combox. However, I do appreciate your research on Justin Martyr and your willingness to share it with us. Regarding Justin's view of the holy spirit, while I don't believe that he is a trinitarian per se, it might be good to review what is written in 1 Apology 6.1-2. There is much that one could say about that passage. Charles Gieschen has recorded some interesting observation about the passsage: "Hence are we called atheists. And we confess that we are atheists, so far as gods of this sort are concerned, but not with respect to the most true God, the Father of righteousness and temperance and the other virtues, who is free from all impurity. But both Him, and the Son (who came forth from Him and taught us these things, and the host of the other good angels who follow and are made like to Him), and the prophetic Spirit, we worship and adore, knowing them in reason and truth, and declaring without grudging to every one who wishes to learn, as we have been taught."

Edgar Foster said...

I quoted 1 Apology 6.1-2 and recommend that you consult Gieschen and Robert M. Grant's Gods and the One God. Best wishes!

Matt13weedhacker said...

Hi Edgar.

I will look up those references you mentioned. Thank you.

I did anticipate and think of the passage in his 1st Apol. Chap 6 where he speaks of:

1.) Gk., ( σεβόμεθα ) “reverential-fear”
2.) Gk., ( προσκυνοῦμεν ) “worship”
3.) Gk., ( λόγῳ καὶ ἀληθείᾳ τιμῶντες ) “to rationally and truthfully honour”

When I came across the passage in Dialogue 68:3b-4.

But in the same Apology he also says this:

JUSTIN MARTYR (circa. 110 to 165 C.E.): “...It is wrong, therefore, to understand THE SPIRIT and the power of God as anything else than the Word, who is also the first-born of God, … And that the prophets are inspired by no other than the Divine Word, even you, as I fancy, will grant...” - (1st Apology Chapter 33:6; CHAPTER XXXIII -- MANNER OF CHRIST'S BIRTH PREDICTED, Roberts & Donaldson ANF.)

This really throws a spanner in the works!

To a Trinitarian this is a “confounding of the persons”.

I do believe this has a bearing on the interpretation of the passage.

Matt13weedhacker said...

To top it off Justin makes these remarks:

JUSTIN MARTYR (circa. 110 to 165 C.E.): “...and he will ( τιμήσει ) worship no but he will, since God desires it, ( τιμήσῃ ) revere the Angel who is loved by the same Lord and God...” - (Dialogue with Trypho Chapter 93 Kevin Edgecomb, Berkely, CA.)

JUSTIN MARTYR (circa. 110 to 165 C.E.): “...will reverence no other god; and since God wishes it, he would reverence that Angel who is ( τὸν ἀγαπώμενον ) beloved by the same Lord and God...” - (Dialogue with Trypho Chapter 93 ANF Roberts & Donaldson)

The “Angel” who is Gk., ( τὸν ἀγαπώμενον ) “...( the ) Beloved...”?

He is possibly here also refering to Christ.

ΚΑΤΑ ΜΑΤΘΑΙΟΝ 17:5 Greek NT: Westcott/Hort with Diacritics
ἔτι αὐτοῦ λαλοῦντος ἰδοὺ νεφέλη φωτεινὴ ἐπεσκίασεν αὐτοὺς καὶ ἰδοὺ φωνὴ ἐκ τῆς νεφέλης λέγουσα· οὗτος ἐστιν ὁ υἱός μου ὁ ἀγαπητός ἐν ᾧ εὐδόκησα· ἀκούετε αὐτοῦ.

MATT 17:5: “...Yet of him speaking look! Voice out of the cloud saying This: “Is the Son of-me THE BELOVED, in whom I thought well; you be hearing him...” - (Kingdom Interlinear Literal Translation)

John 5:23 Greek Study Bible (Apostolic / Interlinear)
ἵνα πάντες τιμῶσιν τὸν υἱὸν καθὼς τιμῶσιν τὸν πατέρα. ὁ μὴ τιμῶν τὸν υἱὸν οὐ τιμᾷ τὸν πατέρα τὸν πέμψαντα αὐτόν.

JOHN 5:23: “...in order that all they may honour to-the Son according as they are honouring the Father. The (one) not honouring the Son not is honouring the Father the (one) having sent him...” - (Kingdom Interlinear Literal Translation)

GREEK TEXT: “...ὃς καὶ ἄγγελος τοῦ τῶν ὅλων ποιητοῦ θεοῦ καλεῖται καὶ νοεῖται εἶναι ἐκ τοῦ διαγγέλλειν τοῖς ἀνθρώποις τὰ παρὰ τοῦ πατρὸς καὶ ποιητοῦ τῶν ἁπάντων...” - (Dial. Chapter 60:3(B); Goodspeed Text)

JUSTIN MARTYR (c. 110 to 165 C.E.): “...Who is also called [the] Angel of the (definitive) God and Maker of the entire universe and is percieved as being the one who announces and passes messages of command to mankind that are from the Father and Maker of all things...” - (Dial. Chapter 60:3(B); Matt13weedhacker 01/04/11)

Mike Karoules said...

Dear Edgar,

Dong some research on Justin Martyr and ran across your blog. Actually, I am trying to hammer down which language he originally wrote his works in; Greek or Latin? Would be able to tell me and give me any evidences on/for which language he wrote in?? Seems you all in this discussion on Justin are familiar with early church languages so I thought I could ask. Well also, the manuscript copies that we have of Justin Martyr; are they manuscript copies in the Greek or Latin, (or both)?? If both, are the copies of Justin's writing in Greek older or younger than the Latin copies. Edgar, thank you for giving me any time on these inquiries on Justin. Tks for your time if you can.

Mike Karoules
metro-Atlanta, Georgia

Edgar Foster said...

Hi Mike,

Justin Martyr originally wrote in Greek, but there are Latin texts for his works. Wikipedia has links for the Greek texts. You can easily access them online by means of wikipedia.

Best regards,

Edgar