Monday, October 05, 2015

Irenaeus and John 14:28

"For if any one should inquire the reason why the
Father, who has fellowship with the Son in all things,
has been declared by the Lord alone to know the hour
and the day [of judgment], he will find at present no
more suitable, or becoming, or safe reason than this
(since, indeed, the Lord is the only true Master),
that we may learn through Him that the Father is above
all things. For 'the Father,' says He, 'is greater
than I.' The Father, therefore, has been declared by
our Lord to excel with respect to knowledge; for this
reason, that we, too, as long as we are connected with
the scheme of things in this world, should leave
perfect knowledge, and such questions [as have been
mentioned], to God, and should not by any chance,
while we seek to investigate the sublime nature of the
Father, fall into the danger of starting the question
whether there is another God above God" (Irenaeus, Adv. Haer.
2.28.8).

14 comments:

guitarsatele said...

Very interesting. Its always fascinated me how a Trinitarian views Math 24:36. Angels and the Son are mentioned, yet no mention of the Holy spirit. One would think that the context would demand that since the son and the Father are declared as knowing or not knowing the day or the hour, shouldn't we be told if the Holy spirit knows. Yet once again he is left out.
I enjoy your posts here very much. Thanks

Duncan said...

This quote seems rather garbled.

Moving from day and hour to "fall into the danger of starting the question whether there is another God above God"

Is this portion available in original Greek or just Latin? I am having difficulty navigating this site:-

http://textexcavation.com/irenaeusah2.html#chapter28

Duncan said...

https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=13jIWO-6LgYC&pg=PA234&lpg=PA234&dq=irenaeus+against+heresies+latin&source=bl&ots=mQNP2S2r9n&sig=faTpOprGxSxPi_xigqjmK2ikVuk&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0CCwQ6AEwAjgeahUKEwj9hJXK-63IAhVDbRQKHY3vCTs#v=onepage&q=irenaeus%20against%20heresies%20latin&f=false

This states that substantial fragments are available in Greek but does not give any direction on how to get access to them.

David Waltz said...

Hi Duncan,

The Greek fragments (which are quite extensive) are included along side the Latin text in Migne's Patrologiae cursus completus Graeca, volume 7.

A PDF copy available online for download and/or reading - HERE.

Grace and peace,

David

Edgar Foster said...

Duncan,

See http://www.documentacatholicaomnia.eu/20vs/103_migne_gm/0130-0202,_Iraeneus,_Contra_Haereses_Libri_Quinque_%28MPG_007a_0433_1118%29,_GM.pdf

But it makes more sense to read Irenaeus contextually. You'll then see why he mentions the God above God.

Matt13weedhacker said...

There are only, (as far as I can find), Greek Fragments of Book 2, starting from Chapter 33, Section 3, on-wards unfortunately.

The Latin text of Book 2, Chapter 28, Section 8 is MPG Vol. 7, Col. 811-812. The footnotes may be of interest. It appears some, (i.e. Tri{3}nitarians) have attempted to "emend" parts of this passage.

Edgar Foster said...

Thank you, guitarsatele.

Matt13weedhacker said...

A little context:

IRENAEUS OF LYONS (circa. 130-200 C.E.): “...And ye, absurdly puffed up, say boldly that ye know the unutterable mysteries of God : whereas even the Lord, the very Son of God, allowed that the Father Himself alone knows the day and hour of judgement, saying expressly, “Of that day and hoiur no man knoweth, nor yet the Son, but the Father only.” If therefore the Son felt no shame{4} to refer to the Father the knowledge of that day, but spake what is true : neither let us be ashamed to reserve unto God those points in our enquiries which are too great for us. For no man is above his master. Should any one therefore say to us. How then is the Son produced of the Father? we tell him, that this production, or generation, or utterance, or manifestation, or by what name soever one may denote His Generation, which cannot be declared,— 'no man knoweth' : not Valentinus, not Marcion, nor Saturninus, nor Basilides, nor Angels, nor Princes, nor Powers, but the Father only Who begat, and the Son Who was born. Since therefore His generation cannot be declared, whosoever strive to declare generations and emanations, are not in their right senses, professing to declare things which cannot be declared. For that a Word is produced from thought and sense, this of course all men know. They have not therefore discovered any great thing, who have devised the Emanations : nor is it a hidden mystery, if what is understood by all, that they have transferred to the Only Begotten Word of God ; and Whom they affirm to be beyond expression or naming. Him, as though they had them-selves assisted at His birth, they describe in the production and generation of His first Birth likening Him to the word of human utterance{5}...” - (Book 2, Chapter 28, Section , Page 178, Five Books of S. Irenaeus Bishop of Lyons “AGAINST HERESIES,” Translated by The Rev. John Keble, M.A. With The Fragments that Remain of His Other Works. James Parker and CO. Oxford, and 377 Strand, London; Riyingtons, London, Oxford, and Cambridge. MDCCCLXXII. [1772].)



Matt13weedhacker said...

IRENAEUS OF LYONS (circa. 130-200 C.E.): “...But the cause itself of the nature of the transgressors, neither hath any Scripture related, nor Apostle said, nor hath the Lord taught. We must therefore leave this knowledge to God, as the Lord Himself doth that of the Hour and Day : and not adventure ourselves so far, as to leave nothing even to God : and that, receiving grace as we do but in part : nor should we through seeking what is above us and whereto we may not reach, proceed to so great boldness, as to be unfolding God, and as if we had now made out things yet undiscovered, by vain talk about emanations assert that [Page 180] God Himself the Maker of all liad His being both of decay and of ignorance; and so form an argument full of impiety towards God. [8.] And next, they have no testimony of the device which they have lately invented, sometimes by any given numbers, sometimes again by syllables, and sometimes by names : occasionally too by the letters which are in the letters{6}, and sometimes again by parables not rightly solved, or by certain suspicions endeavouring to establish that fabulous recital which they may have framed. For so, should any one ask the cause, why the Father, in all communicating with the Son, is declared by the Lord alone to know the day and hour ; none either more suitable nor more dignified, nor any other safe one may he find at the present, than this : (since the Lord alone is the only veracious teacher) viz., that we might learn by Himself that the Father is above all. “For the Father,” saith He, “is greater than I.” Wherefore in respect of knowledge also the Father is declared by our Lord to be set in the first place, to the end that we too, so far as we are in the fashion of this world, may give up perfect knowledge, and all such questionings, to God; and that we may not by any chance, while seeking to explore the deeps of the Father, fall into the great danger, of enquiring whether there be another God above God...” - (Book 2, Chapter 28, Sections 7-8, Page 178, Five Books of S. Irenaeus Bishop of Lyons “AGAINST HERESIES,” Translated by The Rev. John Keble, M.A. With The Fragments that Remain of His Other Works. James Parker and CO. Oxford, and 377 Strand, London; Riyingtons, London, Oxford, and Cambridge. MDCCCLXXII. [1772].)

Matt13weedhacker said...

There's quite a long passage dealing with Matt. 24.36 in Origen's Com. On Matthew, (MPG Vol. 13, Col. 1686, Chapter 55), in Latin, (which to my knowledge), hasn't been translated into English.

Matt13weedhacker said...

Add Chapter 56 to that. There be may be more in the context. It's been a long time since I looked at the Latin.

Matt13weedhacker said...

Oh, I just remembered. A caveat emptor is in order. Origen's Com. On Matt. may be Rufinus' redacted, (i.e. corrupted tampered with), version. Thought I better add that.

David Waltz said...

I forgot to mention that in addition to Migne's edition, William Wigan Harvey published a 2 volume set of Irenaeus' Against Heresies:

Volume 1

Volume 2

IMO, Harvey's edition is superior, for at least three reasons: first, the layout of the text is better; second, his footnotes are more extensive; and third, it includes some valuable introductions.

I also did a 'modest' bibliography on Irenaeus that may be of interest to some folk - LINK.


Grace and peace,

David

Duncan said...

Many thanks to all who posted llnks it has helped me greatly.

Edgar, it's not so garbled ├▒ow but I would really liked to have seen the above phrase in greek. It does seem to me that the most critical phrases in ancient manuscript's are usually the ones missing. A conspiracy?