Sunday, September 12, 2021

Using New Testament Greek (David A. Black)-Part X

What is rhetorical criticism and how can it be used in GNT exegesis?

Black writes: "Rhetorical analysis is essentially an attempt to clarify our understanding of the biblical text through a study of its literary techniques. Ancient authors often employed these techniques in order to assist readers to understand the message of the text or to persuade them of the truth of the presentation. As the art of reading a text, rhetorical analysis involves close attention to the scope of a given passage (its beginning and end), the discovery of figures of speech (e.g., simile and metaphor), the observation of compositional techniques (e.g., parallelism and chiasmus), and judgments about the relationship of form to meaning. Hence the interpreter should always allow for the possibility that the rhetorical dimension of the text will bear directly on exegetical questions."

Hence, one can see that rhetorical criticism (analysis) covers much ground: there are many ways that one could examine the Bible from a rhetorical perspective. First, I will consider tropes, also known as figures of speech or rhetorical devices.

Paul utilizes a trope in 1 Thessalonians 4:17: ἔπειτα ἡμεῖς οἱ ζῶντες οἱ περιλειπόμενοι ἅμα σὺν αὐτοῖς ἁρπαγησόμεθα ἐν νεφέλαις εἰς ἀπάντησιν τοῦ κυρίου εἰς ἀέρα· καὶ οὕτως πάντοτε σὺν κυρίῳ ἐσόμεθα.

This verse contains pleonasm (Greek, πλεονασμός). One source defines pleonasm as "the use of more words than those necessary to denote mere sense (as in the man he said)" (see Merriam-Webster): a synonym of pleonasm is redundancy. Vide David A. Black (Linguistics for Students of NT Greek, page 136)--he defines pleonasm as "the use of more words than necessary, as in 'He was appointed temporarily, for the time being.' "

Compare Ephesians 3:21, Colossians 2:13 and Philippians 1:23 for examples of this trope.

Under the entry for ἅμα in BDAG, we also read that ἅμα σὺν (1 Thessalonians 4:17) is evidently pleonastic: cf. the Latin una cum and 1 Thessalonians 5:10 which seems to be a clear example of pleonasm, maybe even more distinctly than the former verse in Thessalonians.

David J. Williams (1 and 2 Thessalonians) adds that the whole phrase ἅμα σὺν "is emphasized by placing it early in the sentence" prior to the verb ἁρπαγησόμεθα in 4:17 (Williams, page 85). He notes that ἅμα "reinforces" σὺν here.

For a potential use of pleonasm in the Gospels, see https://www.jstor.org/stable/3260447?casa_token=bUUCkHIh13cAAAAA%3AaF08QG9k3a5LB_SjmsNpaff6zjYStNa4KPL6Mo9Sl5VTaEXzzJZ7pN-qMluDm1Vt-psjGSlbV7HWRa04RNUB1EjjIwnB_AOqxCBr5O4gkEClAg_oqEc&seq=1#metadata_info_tab_contents

Gregory K. Beale argues that pleonasm occurs in Revelation 2:7, 17 with the occurrence of Τῷ νικῶντι δώσω αὐτῷ; one thing that indicates αὐτῷ is pleonastic is the fact that some MSS omit it. See Beale, The Book of Revelation, 235-236.

For more on pleonastic participles (also called redundant or appositional participles), vide https://bible.org/article/participle

Next I want to discuss metaphor. John Sanders made a comment upon which I'd like to piggyback:

"When God is said to be a husband, father and friend, these metaphors depend on the reality of God's being a personal agent" (The God Who Risks, page 26).

The point I want to extract from Sander's comment is that when the Bible proclaims that God is a husband, father or friend, it is employing metaphorical language. God doesn't have a corporeal and female wife and Jehovah is not a friend to any human in the same way that human friends are (Exodus 33:11; Numbers 12:8; James 2:23). The same principle applies to my relationship with Jehovah as Father (Matthew 6:9; James 1:17) or when it comes to his relationship with Jerusalem above (Gal. 4:26)--God's figurative wife.

Having said the foregoing, however, I want to make it clear that I think it is still possible to speak literally (i.e., non-metaphorically) about certain spiritual realities. A medieval thinker named Duns Scotus set forth the possibility that humans possess the resources to speak univocally about God and creatures. The late William Alston did work in our time on this same question: he insisted that it's possible to speak literally about God, yet much of our theological speech remains metaphorical.

One example of metaphoricity in the Bible might be Colossians 1:15.
πρωτότοκος is possibly a metaphor: (1) For according to Scripture, Christ was not really born since God is not a man and does not have a wife, but he was created since John calls him,
ἡ ἀρχὴ τῆς κτίσεως τοῦ Θεοῦ (Revelation 3:14). Even if Trinitarians don't want to accept that Christ was created, I would submit that they don't think God sired a Son. Moreover, God's bringing forth a heavenly male Son should not be appealing to non-Trinitarians. Keep in mind that the created angels in heaven are called "sons" in the Hebrew Bible.

2) The verb "born" and its derivatives or cognates is used metaphorically in the Hebrew Scriptures to portray the divine act of bringing forth contingent entities. Psalm 90:2 refers to the "birth" of mountains actually created by God. Isaiah 66:7-8 depicts Zion giving birth to sons and a land in one day, id est, in a moment. But the context shows that Jehovah is the one who causes Zion to bring forth sons in a figurative sense: he too produces the land that suddenly issues forth.

In the prophecy's fulfillment, God is responsible for the repatriation of Judah as he causes the land to teem with people. By returning Judah to her homeland, Jehovah "creates" a new heavens and a new earth (Isa. 65:17ff); nevertheless, the prophet likewise employs birth imagery to delineate this event which is clearly metaphorical. Revelation employs similar tropes (Revelation 12:1-6).

Another trope or rhetorical device that I will discuss briefly is chiasmus: the chief interest for me is how Bible writers deploy chiasmus.

Definition of chiasmus: "
inversion of the second of two parallel phrases, clauses, etc. ( Ex.: she went to Paris; to New York went he)"

(Webster's New World College Dictionary)

Others describe chiasmus as literary crisscrossing that may assume the rhythmical form ABBA (
“But many that are first / Shall be last, / And many that are last / Shall be first”; “Beauty is truth, truth beauty”).

See https://www.poetryfoundation.org/learn/glossary-terms/chiasmus

Compare Matthew 7:6; 1 Corinthians 12:12-13; Colossians 3:3-4; 2 Peter 3:8.

It appears that John 14:1 employs chiasmus or literary inversion--notice the syntax, πιστεύετε εἰς τὸν θεόν, καὶ εἰς ἐμὲ πιστεύετε.

Another example of rhetorical usage is 1 John 2:12-14, which is D.A. Black's example for doing rhetorical criticism.

Further Reading:

https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.1177/1476993X07083629

https://journals.ufs.ac.za/index.php/at/article/view/1647

https://www.academia.edu/9686371/Chiastic_Structures_in_Hebrews_A_Study_of_Form_and_Function_in_Biblical_Discourse

https://archive.org/details/chiasmusinnewtes0000lund



98 comments:

Duncan said...

Is there any other idea in the introductions to the churches of revelation that are not set out at the beginning of the work?

NLT - "the beginning of God’s new creation:"

I still think it's talking about the the new rulership. Perhaps another concept not introduced in the intro may convince me otherwise?

This is new:-
https://youtu.be/EZJXZT98A18
I do not expect to agree with everything but I like multiple perspectives to trigger avenues of investigation.

Edgar Foster said...

I'm not dogmatic about the meaning of Rev. 3:14, but I'm sure you'd agree that NLT is paraphrastic at best :)

The text doesn't say "new creation" even if that's what it potentially means.

We discussed this issue before and I think G.K. Beale takes the position that the new creation is meant in Rev. 3:14. I found something online that explains Beale's take, which seems to coincide with yours in this respect. he bases his thinking on Revelation 1:5 which identifies Christ as firstborn from the dead. Granted, Colossians 1:18 uses the expression within an ecclesiastical context but that's a lot to hang this expression. I don't see how firstborn from the dead necessarily leads to 3:14 meaning "the beginning of the new creation" or "the originator of God's creation" (Beale). IMO, it's going to take more evidence to prop up this idea that Christ is the beginning of the new creation.

While Revelation 1 might not provide warrant for understanding arche as "the beginning of God's creation," examining John's use of the word might. Other factors might lead one to believe that arche could mean "first of God's creation overall" in 3:14.

Duncan said...

http://files1.wts.edu/uploads/images/files/WTJ/Beale%20-%20Inspired%20Errors.pdf

Pg.12

Duncan said...

"Paul’s phrase “new creation” therefore appears to be his way of
summarizing the new state of affairs that has been inaugurated at Christ’s
first coming and is to be consummated at this second. As Ralph Martin summarizes, “with Christ’s coming a whole new chapter in cosmic relationship
to God opened and reversed the catastrophic effect of Adam’s fall which began the old creation.”"

"103 See the summary of Mell (Neue Schöpfung 257): “Der paulinische Begriff kaine ktisis erweist sich als vorpaulinischer Konsensbegriff frühjüdischer Eschatologie für das Gottes Initiative vorbehaltene überwältigend-wundervolle futurische Endheil. Der abstrakte Begriff ist in der rühjüdischen Theologie nicht einseitig, z.B. kosmologisch, festgelegt, sondern offen für eine soteriologische Füllung. Eine anthropologische und präsentisch-eschatologische Verwendung des Begriffes wie des Motivs der neuen Schöpfung konnte in der frühjüdischen Literatur nicht nachgewiesen
werden.” For a cosmic application of the language, see, e.g., 1 Enoch 72:1; 2 Baruch 32:6; Jub. 4:26. In Joseph and Aseneth (e.g. 8:10–11), creation language is applied to conversion, but the phrase “new creation” does not occur, and it is not clear that the concept is restricted to conversion. See
the survey of Jewish passages in Hubbard, New Creation 26–75. Peter Stuhlmacher also claims that Paul’s new creation concept is drawn from Jewish apocalyptic, especially strands of that movement revealed in the Qumran documents, in ultimate dependence on the last part of Isaiah (“Erwägungen zum ontologischen Charakter der kaine ktisis bei Paulus,” EvT 27 [1967] 1–35)."

https://www.etsjets.org/files/JETS-PDFs/49/49-3/JETS_49-3_449-488_Moo.pdf

The Nature aspect of his conclusion is the trajectory I have been heading for some time.

Duncan said...

https://www.jstor.org/stable/26423963

Duncan said...

I am interested in recent commentaries on 65:16?

Edgar Foster said...

I don't have time to dig deep into Rev. 3:14 now, but Beale seems to be reaching when he tries using Isaiah 65:16 to explain all of Rev. 3:14. I could see the Isaian verse being a partial allusion for the Revelation text, but for all of it? 3:14 reminds me partly of 2 Corinthians 1:20 and certainly seems to be influenced by Proverbs 8:22; Colossians 1:15-18. Compare Isa. 65:16 LXX.

Those who talk about the new creation have to deal with 2 Cor. 5:17; Galatians 6:14-16. I find that many writers want to overlay those verses with outside impositions rather than exegete the actual verses.

See also https://www.researchgate.net/publication/285172880_Live_Long_in_the_Land_The_Covenantal_Character_of_the_Old_Testament_Allusions_in_the_Message_to_Laodicea_Revelation_314-22

Duncan said...

https://www.jstor.org/stable/43048364

Duncan said...

I don't think that Johnannine researchers have to deal with Pauline themes.

New creation does not need the phrase "new creation" to be studied.

But this is all moving away from my initial point. That some see it as a new creation but I see revelation as the foundation of a new rulership and king with no cause to search out a preexistence concept. As I said, I see no other introduction to the congregation's that goes outside of the concepts and themes in the initial introduction. The same goes for the Pauline, I see his creation language directed at Jesus as a new Adam, the firstborn from the dead. One can spend to much time trying to smooth and harmonise the writings and by doing so miss the different authors and there intents.

IMO

Edgar Foster said...

I mentioned the Pauline scriptures because that's where the new creation issues from in the GNT. To my knowledge, Revelation never uses that exact term, but scholars read it into Rev. 21-22, etc. This is why I object to using "new creation" for Rev. 3, 21-22. John doesn't even use such terminology.

Well, we've been through it before, but I see no good reason to understand "creation" in Rev. 3:14 as the new creation. Not every important detail appears in the introductory chapter and, for some reason, Christians have taught preexistence for a very long time--even before Nicea in 325 CE. However, I question the idea that John had to explicitly mention the initial creation in chapter 1 of Revelation in order for that to be his meaning in 3:14.

Unfortunately, "creation" appears once in Revelation, so we cannot compare usages in the book. For reasons I've stated before, I believe it's not unreasonable to see Christ as the beginning of the primordial/original creation.

Revelation 3:14: ἡ ἀρχὴ τῆς κτίσεως τοῦ Θεοῦ

2 Peter 3:4: ἀπ’ ἀρχῆς κτίσεως

Proverbs 8:22: κύριος ἔκτισέν με ἀρχὴν ὁδῶν αὐτοῦ εἰς ἔργα αὐτοῦ

I'm not so much trying to harmonize John and Paul, but when I read "new creation," Paul comes to mind b/c he's the one who employs the language, not John. I obviously agree that Jesus is the new Adam and firstborn from the dead, but he's firstborn of all creation and 1 Cor. 8:5-6 could be read as Christ shares in originating creation too.

See also https://www.biblestudytools.com/dictionaries/bakers-evangelical-dictionary/new-creation.html

Duncan said...

There are things in 1 Corinthians that are begging for better explanations.

"rock that was Christ" that followed, not led?

NOT "accompany" as some translations put it.

All things NOT ALL creation. Sure, creation pops up in 11:9 but I am not going to conflate different letters & I am by no means convinced that ta panta means all creation unless the context qualifies it that way. Which I don't think it does in at least one other place.

https://biblehub.com/greek/ektisthe__2936.htm

CF Colossians 1 with https://biblehub.com/psalms/89-27.htm - powers, authorities.

"in him" - for his sake, with him in view.

aorist of "create" - created by god.

Also 1 Peter 3:22.

I have said before my estimation of church fathers and what we should and should not hang onto - they had some really weird ideas on other things.


Duncan said...

Also, pay close attention to ἐν and ἐπὶ.

Duncan said...

CF. https://www.blueletterbible.org/lxx/gen/2/1/s_2001

Duncan said...

CF. 1 Peter 2:13 NWT footnote.

Duncan said...

CF. Ephesians 1:9,10.

Duncan said...

CF. Romans 8:29

Duncan said...

Col 1:17 all thing in him STAND together - CF. Luke 9:32 https://biblehub.com/greek/4921.htm

Isn't that what the risen do?

I will leave it at that.

Edgar Foster said...

Exactly what is excepted (left out) in Eph. 1:9-10? Does it not possibly encompass the whole of creation?

Yeah, the context of 1 Pet. 2:13 indicates that he's talking about something made by a human. See also 2:14, 17.

I think "in him" is not for his sake, but these things happen through him or by means of him. Created by God, yes, but Christ is the agent through whom they're created. The verbs in Colossians 1 are aorist passive.

Furthermore, I'm not saying the church fathers were right about most things, but they weren't always wrong either.

I'm sorry, but Luke 9:32 and Colossians 1:17 are not comparable: they are two different uses of the verb. Thayer notes this difference and so do other sources. Compare Sirach 43:26: δι᾿ αὐτὸν εὐοδοῖ ἄγγελος αὐτοῦ, καὶ ἐν λόγῳ αὐτοῦ σύγκειται πάντα.



Firstborn occurs in Heb. 1:6.

Edgar Foster said...

Some understand ἐν locatively in Colossians 1.

Duncan said...

So why is hold a better term of translation than stand and why is it specifically correct in Sirach?

At the moment that seems a flimsy argument.

Duncan said...

https://hermeneutics.stackexchange.com/questions/13182/is-colossians-117-an-allusion-to-sirach-4326/13224

Duncan said...

https://biblehub.com/greek/ktisei_2937.htm

Edgar Foster said...

With ktisei, I guess you noticed that the one verse in Peter deals with something made by human hands: the other creations are made by God.

One could also use cohere in Colossians, but the idea is that Christ sustains or binds together all things. Context determines how a word is being used and similar contexts suggest like meanings or usages. I think J. Collins makes an extended case for relating the verse in Colossians to Surach 43:26.

We ascertain what a word means in a specific context by studying like examples. Read Collins article to get a more extensive account.

Edgar Foster said...

https://www.bsw.org/biblica/vol-95-2014/colossians-1-17-hold-together-a-co-opted-term/549/

Duncan said...

https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=1BMnDwAAQBAJ&pg=PT146&lpg=PT146&dq=wisdom+1:7+stand+together&source=bl&ots=37mFR6wzQ5&sig=ACfU3U1_l5WNhrfijbV4lhbZdASvCL6lsg&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiPibKVj4TzAhVnQEEAHSyFAU0Q6AF6BAg0EAI#v=snippet&q=stand%20together&f=false

Duncan said...

"stands together"

https://www.studylight.org/commentaries/eng/jbc/colossians-1.html

https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=nJdLAwAAQBAJ&pg=PA13&lpg=PA13&dq=%22in+him+all+things+stand+together%22&source=bl&ots=TZzov2N0Vj&sig=ACfU3U0shp-qLty7oaOXKeRExdfbpiAkcQ&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwi7_5G9poTzAhVQgP0HHXV5ArEQ6AF6BAgYEAM#v=onepage&q=stand%20together&f=false

Duncan said...

One has to wonder why the NIV had to update it's translation from:-

http://web.mit.edu/jywang/www/cef/Bible/NIV/NIV_Bible/COL+1.html

"by him" to "in him" if by him is what was meant?

Edgar Foster said...

First, here's one problem with Landegent's approach, trying to preserve "root" imagery. Why not think about how a writer employs the word contextually, not diachronically?

Why not consult BDAG? It notes that Paul's use of sunistemi in Colossians 1:17 differs from Luke 9:32. I would encourage you to read the whole entry (page 973), but for Col. 1:17, we find the sense, "to come to be in a condition of coherence, continue, endure, exist, hold together." BDAG gives other references for a similar usage like 2 Pet 3:5 and Plato's Republic 7.530a and Timaeus 61a, etc.

Edgar Foster said...

We find a similar problem with Beet, who seems to be relying on etymology and obviously did not have the current information on sunistemi. But if we want to go old school, note the words of John Eadie:

Καὶ τὰ πάντα ἐν αὐτῷ συνέστηκε “And all things in Him are upheld.” Not only is He the creator, but He is also preserver. Hebrews 1:3. The verb sometimes signifies to arrange, to constitute, to create, but it also denotes to maintain in existence what has been created. 2 Peter 3:5. Such is the view of the Fathers; as OEcumenius paraphrases- δἰ αὐτοῦ τὴν γένεσιν καὶ τὴν διαμονὴν ἔχει. Προμηθεῖται ὧν ἐποίησε. The perfect tense seems to point us to this signification. What has been created has still been preserved. The two meanings of the verb meet and merge in its perfect tense. The τὰ πάντα , in this verse, are those of the preceding clauses, and not simply the church, as some in timidity and error restrict it. All things were brought together, and are still held together in Him.

Edgar Foster said...

https://books.google.com/books?id=jVVT04cfG4QC&pg=PA468&lpg=PA468&dq=%CF%83%CF%85%CE%BD%CE%AD%CF%83%CF%84%CE%B7%CE%BA%CE%B5+colossians+1:17&source=bl&ots=cx5zCNFDTk&sig=ACfU3U3NSV3qSpK8lTZXwWT5Jv0oM2VUCw&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwixu6TA9oTzAhW9SzABHWzIATg4ChDoAXoECAwQAw#v=onepage&q=%CF%83%CF%85%CE%BD%CE%AD%CF%83%CF%84%CE%B7%CE%BA%CE%B5%20colossians%201%3A17&f=false

Edgar Foster said...

The Greek preposition en can mean "by" in certain contexts or by means of. See Matthew 9:34; 2 Corinthians 5:19-21 in NWT. Murray Harris lists the usage as a possible meaning for Colossians 1:16, but then opts for the locative. However, "by" is possible but NIV may have thought the context rules it out.

Edgar Foster said...

https://books.google.com/books?id=xRENAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA698&lpg=PA698&dq=%CF%83%CF%85%CE%BD%CE%AD%CF%83%CF%84%CE%B7%CE%BA%CE%B5+colossians+1:17&source=bl&ots=CSzlvTngXU&sig=ACfU3U25mYdj8bbC8Xp1pWLkd9NcORiJSg&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwixu6TA9oTzAhW9SzABHWzIATg4ChDoAXoECA8QAw#v=onepage&q=%CF%83%CF%85%CE%BD%CE%AD%CF%83%CF%84%CE%B7%CE%BA%CE%B5%20colossians%201%3A17&f=false

Duncan said...

https://biblehub.com/greek/sunesto_sa_4921.htm

For 2 Pet 3:5 land stands out of water and I think bdag is flat out wrong, not for the similarities but for the definition.

http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0168%3Abook%3D7%3Asection%3D530a

Not sure about the best method of translation in Plato.

Edgar Foster said...

See Louw-Nida: http://www.laparola.net/greco/louwnida.php?sezmag=13&sez1=82&sez2=82

For Plato and others, see http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=%CF%83%CF%85%CE%BD%E1%BD%B7%CF%83%CF%84%CE%B7%CE%BC%CE%B9#lexicon

Lots of examples

Translating any author is complex, but basic principles usually guide translation.

Edgar Foster said...

See NET for 2 Peter 3:5. As for the Plato Republic passage, what does the context suggest about how one should translate it? Compare Josephus, Antiquities of the Jews 12.2.2.

See also the other passage in Plato's Timaeus that I referenced above.

Duncan said...

https://www.definitions.net/definition/stand

Note "stand of trees"

Edgar Foster said...

Richard Bauckham translation of 2 Peter 3:5: "For in maintaining this, they overlook the fact that long ago there were heavens and an earth, created out of water and by means of water by the word of God."

His rationale: "Since the whole argument of these vv requires a statement that the heavens, as well as the earth, were created by the word of God, it is best to take συνεστῶσα, 'created,' with οὐρανοί as well as with γῆ and to explain its feminine singular form by attraction to the nearest subject, γῆ."

Bauckham makes additional comments about 2 Peter 3:5:

1 Clem 27:4: ἐν λόγῶ τῆς μεγαλωσύνης αὐτοῦ συνεστήσατο τὰ πάντα, καὶ ἐν λόγῳ δύναται αὐτὰ καταστρέψαι, “By a word of his majesty he created all things, and by a word he can destroy them.” The use of συνιστάναι (transitive here; contrast the intransitive use in 2 Pet 3:5) for God’s creation of the world is not uncommon (Philo, Leg. All.3.10; Josephus, Ant. 12.22; Corp. Herm. 1.31; cf. 1 Enoch 101:6) and of course the idea of creation by the word of God is very common, but the parallel between creation by word and destruction by word is rare and strikingly similar to 2 Pet 3:5, 7 (cf. also Apoc. Pet. E 4, probably dependent on 2 Pet 3:5, 7). This could be just one of the many similarities between 1 Clem and 2 Peter, but the v in 1 Clem occurs in a passage defending future eschatology (23–27) which began with the quotation from an apocryphal work (23:3–4) which resembles 2 Pet 3:4. It is therefore quite likely that 1 Clem 27:4 echoes the same Jewish apocalypse on which 2 Pet 3:5–7 is dependent.

Duncan said...

https://biblehub.com/text/genesis/1-9.htm

The water was gathered, not the land.

Duncan said...

https://www.etymonline.com/word/stand

Duncan said...

https://saintebible.com/greek/eite_1535.htm

This is the conditional operator.

Edgar Foster said...

In logic, isn't "or" a disjunctive term. We use 'v' for the symbol of disjunction and distinguish between inclusive and exclusive 'or.'

Edgar Foster said...

If . . . then is conditional and the unidirectional arrow symbolizes conditional statements

Duncan said...

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Logical_connective

Edgar Foster said...

We may be talking past one another, and computer programming is different from using logic in philosophy. But in the logic I teach, conditionality is distinguished from disjunction, conjunction, negation, and biconditionality. The unidirectional arrow and the so-called horseshoe stand for conditional statements in classical logic or those symbols are statement operators. Of course, you're more on the computer side of things than me where the language apparently differs.

See also https://www.chilimath.com/lessons/introduction-to-number-theory/truth-tables-of-five-common-logical-connectives/

Duncan said...

Obviously "whereas" != "or" so the condition use is different.

But, ta pants is within a condition.

Edgar Foster said...

Okay, but when we read eite . . . eite and such, we're now talking about 3 uses of "conditional" versus disjunctive. Conditional statements are analyzed in logic, you have the conditional operator in computer programming, then conditional statements can be analyzed grammatically. But is the construct in Colossians a condition? I don't know about that.

For conditionals in Greek, see https://www.ntgreek.org/learn_nt_greek/conditional_sentences.htm

Or communicates disjunction to me rather than conditionality, but I'm open to new suggestions.

Edgar Foster said...

https://web.a.ebscohost.com/abstract?direct=true&profile=ehost&scope=site&authtype=crawler&jrnl=05883237&AN=120883001&h=2VhM3iP9F2hLeZ0zSmPbpDRDSDENZ9%2bwyaCKB19Hn5ua4%2fJU1bbkFqou%2b6kRkPxfVQ1BjeQzklyqCVBa5ibMkw%3d%3d&crl=c&resultNs=AdminWebAuth&resultLocal=ErrCrlNotAuth&crlhashurl=login.aspx%3fdirect%3dtrue%26profile%3dehost%26scope%3dsite%26authtype%3dcrawler%26jrnl%3d05883237%26AN%3d120883001

Eite . . . eite

Duncan said...

https://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/b-greek/2010-February/052477.html

Note what is said here about bdag.

Edgar Foster said...

1) I disagree with Iver here and elsewhere, but that's beside the point. Frankly, I think BDAG/BAGD is on solid groud in this case but this also is not about how Danker and company defined words. To say that thronoi applies to spirit beings in some cases is more about a term's reference than its sense. BDAG is the king of Greek-English lexicons without question: the work is magisterial and most NT scholars and grammarians would concur. I'm pretty sure about that.

2) However, BDAG is not infallible: I would never tell anyone to go by BDAG alone, and I doubt most NT scholars would say any differently. Sometimes BDAG is wrong, sometimes its definitions are questionable, but the lexicon get things right most of the time.

3) In addition to BDAG, one needs Louw-Nida (which I quoted earlier along with BDAG), LSJ, Brill Greek Dictionary, the Cambridge Lexicon and others. I'm not a BDAG onlyist :-)

For Colossians 1:16, see https://fosterheologicalreflections.blogspot.com/search?q=harris+colossians

Check the followup answer to Iver here: https://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/b-greek/2010-February/052474.html

Duncan said...

That is not the follow up answer but rather the post to which he is responding.

Duncan said...

https://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/b-greek/2010-February/052491.html

Edgar Foster said...

Like anything else, about everything Iver writes can be questioned: we can't look at Paul through Danish eyes either. I haven't looked at the exact language Iver mentions about the emperor, but I'll take his word for it, at this time.

BDAG's use of Test. Levi is acceptable by usual scholarly standards. it's difficult to attack the lexicon because it uses a source that may be connected with a 7 heaven perspective. To me, this is beside the point anyway, when the issue is lexical rather than theological. However, it's unclear if Test. Levi does espouse a 7 heaven theology. See https://fosterheologicalreflections.blogspot.com/2015/04/wright-scott-and-levels-of-heaven.html

What about Paul's view of the Greek word, thronos?

The Colossians commentary in the Anchor Bible Series offers these remarks for 1:16:

"Throne” is used as a metaphor for the ruling powers of gods and kings in extra-biblical Greek; see, for example, Aeschylus, Eum 229; Sophocles Oed Col 425. In the OT (LXX), see, among others, 2 Sam 3:10; Isa 14:13; compare 2 Sam 7:16; Jer 13:13; 17:25; Ps 88(89):5, 30, 37. “Dominion” is rarely attested. In later times, it is a terminus for legitimate authority. “Might and power,” in this connection, occurs in the NT as designation of wordly and spiritual authorities: Luke 12:11; 20:20; Titus 3:1.

On the last part, M.J. Harris writes:

By metonymy θρόνοι (“ the enthroned,” BDAG 460c) are probably angelic occupants of heavenly thrones, although Wilson (141) suggests “all the powers of heaven, both good and evil,” while κυριότητες (nom. pl. of κυριότης, -ητος, ἡ, “ruling power/ force, dominion”; cf. BDAG 579b), ἀρχαί (“rulers,” NRSV, HCSB, ESV; Wilson 123), and ἐξουσίαι (“ authorities,” NASB ², HCSB, ESV; Dunn 83) are supernatural potentates who exercise (respectively) “dominion,” “rule,” and “authority” in heavenly realms. Wilson, however, finds a twofold chiastic sequence here so that thrones and dominions belong to the invisible heavenly realm, while rulers and powers belong to the visible earthly realm (140). See further Turner, Words 28–32, 115–16, 348–49, 448–49; For Further Study 27, “Principalities and Powers in Paul (2:10, 15).”





Edgar Foster said...

For the throne and metonmy in the Bible, see https://www.jstor.org/stable/3261996?seq=1#metadata_info_tab_contents

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Psalm+94%3A18-20&version=NET

Edgar Foster said...

What's the best lexicon for NT Greek? See https://dailydoseofgreek.com/creative-learning/best-lexicon-for-greek-nt-bdag/

I could produce more who would agree.

Duncan said...

2 Samuel 7:16.

Throne is also the mercy seat. As I said before the canaanites worshiped an empty throne. It's all about rule https://brill.com/view/book/edcoll/9789004306592/B9789004306592_014.xml

But like David sat in god's throne. It is the earthly representative of the rulership of God. The horn, the king. This goes for the ANE cultures.

Duncan said...

I am not going to debate the usefulness of bdag. Christians respect a wholly Christian work.

There are a few words that are theologically loaded and IMOH need to be scrutinised, re-examined and possibly corrected, updated. We have much more than Greek texts to compare. Inscriptions and artefacts need to be included.

Duncan said...

What do you think of The Concise Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament?

Edgar Foster said...

You think the throne of David was also the mercy seat? The Israelites distinguished the king's throne from that of the priest, but Melchizedek was a king-priest and Zechariah foretold that the kingly throne would be united with a priest upoin the thone (6:13), but under normal conditions, kings and priest maintained their separate domains. The sacred ark actually had the mercy seat, not the Davidic throne. But I'm not sure if that's what you're saying.

The throne had to be about more than the power. Davidic kings sat upon YHWH's throne, yes. Was that just symbolic of rule or the ruler? There is no rule without a ruler: the throne means nothing without a sovereign. It's just an empty symbol.

Isaiah 66:1

Duncan said...

I have done enough work on the Hebrew description of the ark of the covenant to know that it could literally have been a throne.

Ancient thrones generally did not have a back. Only arm rests either side.

So what is Isaiah 66:1 quoting?

Ellicott- Cheyne quotes a striking parallel from an Egyptian hymn to the Nile of the fourteenth century B.C., in which we find the writer saying of God, "His abode is not known . . . there is no building that can contain Him."

Duncan said...

https://www.etsjets.org/files/JETS-PDFs/46/46-4/46-4-pp577-588_JETS.pdf

Edgar Foster said...

https://books.google.com/books?id=I8UWJohMGUIC&pg=PA596&dq=bible+throne+metonymy&hl=en&newbks=1&newbks_redir=0&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwie5Kfq6YvzAhXmRjABHVpXAeU4FBDoAXoECAIQAg#v=onepage&q=bible%20throne%20metonymy&f=false

the throne of YHWH is metonymy for the n ature of YHWH himself

That's the summation of the statement in this link. Psalm 97

Duncan said...

I am not blind to the potential implications of sitting in the "Moses seat" - what seat did Moses have? There may be more to that than meets the eye and there are many things that the Torah does not explain and there are definitely gaps. When God spoke to Moses, where did he do it? Moses was not a priest, but what was he?

Edgar Foster said...

You've inspired me to do a piece on Greek lexica: hope to have it published in about a week, but just to be clear, I've tried to qualify my praise of BDAG. I think it's a great lexicon. However, I would never encourage anyone to read it uncritically or use only BDAG.

I don't just like the work b/c it's "Christian""; for me, it's the results of Bauer and Danker's work and the effort they put into it. The book is not perfect and whatever lexicon is published will always suffer from certain limitations. Comparing lexica is also helpful.

You mention artifacts and inscriptions, but no one lexicon can do everything. BDAG is strictly GNT along with "Christian literature." Louw-Nida has a different focus and so does Brill Gk. Dictionary.

IMO, if you have BDAG, you don't need the Concise Dictionary. And for those doing serious lexical work in the GNT, more is needed than the concise lexicon. That is my humble assessment.

I agree with you about the ark potentially being a throne. YHWH was supposed to throne above the cherubim anyway, as the Psalms state. Interesting Egyptian quote.

Edgar Foster said...

Moses was certainly a prophet (Deut 34:10) and Numbers 7:89 ight have some relevance here. One verse that always interests me is Psalm 99:6-7.

Edgar Foster said...

I'm just going to make brief comments about the Poythress article regarding BDAG.

I like some of what Poythress does and have read a number of his books.

He's right that the masculine sense for pater should not be watered down and BDAG likely caters to modern sensibilities pertaining to gender inclusiveness. Unfortunately, there are probably lots of pressures behind the scene that control the final publication of a lexicon these days. On the other hand, there is a certain element of truth in how Danker treats some of these issues.

Is God male or masculine with respect to his ontology? I don't think so. God is not a man and he's called "father of lights," which surely cannot be literal. The gender questions are complex, but I don't believe any of this disqualifies BDAG.

Duncan said...

If you have to go all the way to the Psalms to be told that Moses was a priest then I will take this as revisionist history. He was not the high priest, so what was he?

When Moses heard between the cherubim. Is that from between or literally between?

Duncan said...

Calvin's commentary -

It may appear improper that he should speak of Moses as among the priests, since his sons were only among the common Levites, and that Moses himself, after the giving of the law, never held the office of high priest. But as the Hebrews call כוהנים, chohanim, those who are chief and very eminent personages, 121 such as kings’ sons, there is nothing to prevent the prophet from giving this designation to Moses, as if he had said that he was one of the holy rulers of the Church.

Duncan said...

"but no one lexicon can do everything." - why not?

That might have been true once but now we have "big data".

A project equivalent to net bible could do it now with every entry scrutinised by those who have an interest in that particular one. I am sure we would see much activity on those theologically loaded terms, with people bringing all the evidence forward to support there interpretations.

It would also have a large knock on effect to the net bible.

Edgar Foster said...

When I made that comment, I was thinking of a print lexicon. Most printed lexical or dictionaries cover certain periods: they fill a particular niche. The book becomes too unwieldy if one tries too much plus classical Greek definitions differ from the GNT. Lastly, there already is an online work named TLG.

Edgar Foster said...

I don't consider Moses being called a priest in the Psalm "revisionist history." I believe the Pentateuch makes it clear that he was not part of the Levitical priesthood, but he installed the priesthood and even interceded for Aaron and Miriam. Psalms could have later articulated what the Pentateuch stated implicitly.

Duncan said...

For "big data" I meant of the relevant periods, but even this would be hotly debated.

Duncan said...

Kings install priesthoods. Moses intercedes for a misstep against who?

Duncan said...

A new interesting set of videos can be found here:-

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLNsbNGwVPAR7o9dl8WGr-V964q-VuAaLF

Duncan said...

http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/yonge/book24.html

XXVIII.

"Has he not also enjoyed an even greater communion with the Father and Creator of the universe, being thought unworthy of being called by the same appellation? For he also was called the god and king of the whole nation,"

Duncan said...

CF - John 20:28

Duncan said...

http://stephanus.tlg.uci.edu/

This was not what I meant.

Duncan said...

https://www.academia.edu/34899024/_The_Itinerary_of_The_Prophet-King_by_Wayne_Meeks_a_Foreword_by_Paul_N._Anderson

Edgar Foster said...

1) I get the feeling that you're wanting more than a lexicon, which has a limited scope and usually is confined to certain periods. Lexica define words/lexemes. TDNT tried going beyond mere definitions and so did Louw-Nida, but TDNT was criticized for confusing word with concept. At any rate, I don't see how we get the kind of lexicon you desire, even with big data. It's like asking Noah Webster to give more than he did.

2) Moses intercedes when Aaron and Miriam ultimately commit missteps against Jehovah although Miriam spoke against Moses and his wife too.

3) According to the Pentateuch, was Moses a king? That seems the very opposite of what Torah teaches, if we're talking about his relationship with Israel. God gave Israel a king in his fury: that was well after Moses' time and I can't see him having part of the king requesting that Israel did. On the other hand, Moses had royal lineage via his Egyptian roots.

4) I wasn't necessarily saying you meant something like TLG, but I mentioned it because it's a database rather than a printed lexicon. It's not constrained by paper and ink/presses.

5) For Moses, see also Exod 4:16; 7:1.

6) No doubt that Jesus is a prophet, priest and king.

Edgar Foster said...

Yes, the TC videos look interesting. Thanks.

Duncan said...

Exodus 3:18

Edgar Foster said...

Exodus 15:18; Hebrews 11:24-27

Duncan said...

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Genesis+21%3A33%2CPsalm+9%3A7%2CPsalm+29%3A10%2CPsalm+55%3A19%2CPsalm+66%3A7%2CPsalm+80%3A1%2CPsalm+102%3A12%2CPsalm+145%3A13%2CLamentations+5%3A19&version=NIV

Duncan said...

As for the lexicon issue, it's all about period usage of words. Inscriptions have words, remember the one I pointed out regarding usages for seismos on a stone in that specific, relevant period?

That's all I mean, bdag could include all relevant finds and I am sure it would add new slants to a significant group of words.

Edgar Foster said...

In Moses' day, Israel (the Hebrews) had neither king nor judge, yet YHWH was said to be their king. Jehovah warned Israel about the consequences of human rule and he both gave and took away the king in his fury.

Duncan said...

One has to wonder why yehovah did not remove kingship after Saul had proved a point.


Just came across this-

https://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/3839434/jewish/Moses-Strikes-the-Rock-The-Full-Story.htm

The rock that followed?

Duncan said...

"further discussion of the meaning of the name “Malachia,” see Duke, The Social Location, 73–79. I would like to emphasize that I do not agree with Duke’s suggestion that the name symbolizes Moses also as a king."

https://brill.com/view/book/edcoll/9789004413733/BP000011.xml

Edgar Foster said...

Saul was just the first representative to ascend the throne; a Judean king also needed to ascend the throne and enough time needed to be permitted before the human kings would be no more.

Edgar Foster said...

I see what you're saying about BDAG, but I just feel that goes outside the scope of what the lexicon is designed to do. On one hand, BDAG does reflect the finds of inscriptions, but the focus is more on literature. Besides, there are works that cover Greek inscriptions and epigraphy. Unfortunately, Danker is gone, so someone else would have to produce an improved BDAG.

Edgar Foster said...

For the relationship between BDAG and inscriptions along with other NT sources, see https://readingacts.com/2020/07/08/book-review-d-clint-burnett-studying-the-new-testament-through-inscriptions/

Duncan said...

This is why digital solutions are needed as a book that is printed is usually out of date before it goes to press.

Edgar Foster said...

You might like this link: https://www.the-tls.co.uk/articles/the-cambridge-greek-lexicon-james-diggle-book-review-peter-thonemann/

Duncan said...

I probably would if I could read it. Can you give me the gist?

Back on seismos -

https://www.facebook.com/etymonline/posts/greek-seismos-a-shaking-shock-an-earthquake-gave-english-modern-scientific-words/1099941560122726/

http://christswords.com/main/content/seismos

An interesting Xref - https://biblehub.com/text/luke/3-14.htm

Edgar Foster said...

Most of the article is behind a paywall, but he was just making a point about paper lexicons versus digital. The article points out how frustrating it can be to use printed lexicons. He argues that digital are superior

Edgar Foster said...

Seismos has a range of meaning like other words, but as I've preached fervently through the years, context is key. Is it likely that seismos would have a certain meaning in a particular context is what you must ask. Barr also warns about illegitimate totality transfer.

Edgar Foster said...

LSJ: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus:text:1999.04.0057:entry=seismo/s

Edgar Foster said...

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/50301031_The_supposed_Egyptian_earthquakes_of_184_and_95_BC_Critical_review_and_some_lines_of_research_in_historical_seismology_using_Greek_papyri_from_Egypt

Duncan said...

I remember that last paper well.

διασείσητε in this verse in Luke is what interests me. Theft being specifically linked to soldiering.

Bearing in mind the contrast here https://hermeneutics.stackexchange.com/questions/44471/why-does-matthew-use-the-greek-word-seismos-in-matt-824-instead-of-the-lail

Regardless of the theories on that page, Matthews vocab seems more limited.

Edgar Foster said...

Thanks to computers, we can now more easily compare the vocab of each Gospel writer.