Sean, I think Bandstra is just talking about understanding the Hebrew: he's addressing why the article occurs in 1:27. NET makes a similar observation in its footnote for the verse.
As he says, the noun is also collective and these words refer back to 1:26.
Genesis3:22,23NIV"And the LORD God said, “The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever.”So the LORD God banished him from the Garden of Eden to work the ground from which he had been taken." Of course this would include the woman.
Just received an interlinear ESV Hebrew Translation to cross reference this. Thanks for being so synchronistic to my personal research projects, as ever, Edgar.
Interesting that NWT includes the article in 1:27a whereas the ESV does not. So would you say the removal of the article in English in 27a actually accentuates the force of the article in the original Hebrew?
Terence, glad some of the blog posts have synced with your research interests. Mine are varied, but analysis of biblical grammar/words is my favorite thing to do.
I would agree with your last statement. Use of the article, whether in Greek or Hebrew, can be complicated. For example, we know that the article in Greek obviously does not necessarily come across when translating works like ho theos (for example). But I think removing it could accentuate the article's force.
How you get that from John 1:1 is a mystery to me. Nothing said about mankind there at all.
The Bible never says man has the image of the ground but it does say, image and likeness of God. Man is made from the dust/clods of the earth (ground) but that is the material cause of humanity. Doesn't mean that humans image the ground anymore than animals do.
I don't believe Gen. 1:1 has the creation of humankind in mind, just the heavens and earth, not the things in it.
Jn. 1:1 mentions the beginning, the Word, God, and the Word was a god/God. These are reasons why I don't accept the idea that John 1:1 is talking about humankind.
I am familiar with the various possibilities set forth to explain "image" and "likeness." Here's one article: https://cbmw.org/2020/06/10/humanity-as-the-divine-image-in-genesis-126-28/
Genesis 2:1-3 (NKJV): Thus the heavens and the earth, and all the host of them, were finished. 2 And on the seventh day God ended His work which He had done, and He rested on the seventh day from all His work which He had done. 3 Then God blessed the seventh day and sanctified it, because in it He rested from all His work which God had created and made.
Hebrews 4:4 (NKJV): For He has spoken in a certain place of the seventh day in this way: “And God rested on the seventh day from all His works”
I read the hermeneutics page. I t was interesting that virtually everyone there said Adam was not created on or after the seventh day. That is what I also believe. The Bible seems pretty clear that God rested from his works on the seventh day. I quoted two places, but see Exodus 20:11 and surrounding verses.
As some pointed out when addressing the OP on the hermeneutics site, it's obvious that Genesis 2 should not be read sequentially plus show me in the Bible where it teaches that God rested on any day but the seventh. To say otherwise would make the Sabbath law nonsensical.
Well if you watch the debate, NO ONE is arguing for a 2nd cent dating.
Also one has to understand the monetary wealth embodied in the DSS manuscripts in toto.
Vermes was convinced that many came from Jerusalem, not from Qumran.
As an analogy, I went to a castle in wales that had a library of medieval books & along with it a book of accounting. The decision on one particular book was whether to purchase it or a neighboring farm instead.
What are you talking about? Man was made at the end of day 6 - THE FINAL ACT, and that was the question I asked, or was that too obvious? Then he rests on the 7th. This is still relevant to John.
What are you talking about? I believe man was made on the sixth day, but God rested on the seventh. I never said any differently.
To recap, you asked: Did God rest before of after making man?
My answer via quoting scripture was that God rested on the seventh day. That's what every scripture that I quoted or cited states. So, if God rested on the seventh day, he must have made man before that. Hence, he made man on the sixth day. Is that clear enough?
My comments about reading Genesis sequentially were based on the link you supplied. Someone there was suggesting that Adam might have been created after God rested. Maybe what I said becomes even clearer now.
Genesis ch.9 v.2 NIV"The fear and dread of you will fall on all the beasts of the earth, and on all the birds in the sky, on every creature that moves along the ground, and on all the fish in the sea; they are given into your hands. " Genesis: ch.9 v.6 NIV"“Whoever sheds human blood,
by humans shall their blood be shed;
for in the image of God
has God made mankind." Among all the physical creation Man is unique there is nothing in the physical creation apart from man that bears image of JEHOVAH and his superhuman lieutenants. John ch.1 v. 10 NIV"He was in the world, and though the world was made through him, the world did not recognize him." The world which was made through him does not know him thus it is obviously not the new creation,of which he declares John ch.10 v. 14 NIV"“I am the good shepherd; I know my sheep and my sheep KNOW me"
Joshua ch.5 v.13 ASV"And he said, Nay; but as prince of the host of Jehovah am I now come. And Joshua fell on his face to the earth, and did worship, and said unto him, What saith my lord unto his servant? " What is your explanation for this verse?
Or this verse Exodus ch.23 v.21 ASV"Behold, I send an angel before thee, to keep thee by the way, and to bring thee into the place which I have prepared. 21Take ye heed before him, and hearken unto his voice; provoke him not; for he will not pardon your transgression: for my name is in him." Psalm ch.8v.5 ASV"For thou hast made him but little lower than God, And crownest him with glory and honor." Obviously if man is operating on a lower level than the angels it follows that they bear a greater resemblance to JEHOVAH than man does.
Daniel ch.4 v.17ESV"The sentence is by the decree of the watchers, the decision by the word of the holy ones, to the end that the living may know that the Most High rules the kingdom of men and gives it to whom he will and sets over it the lowliest of men." Tell me who are these saints/sentinels? Mere men? Some kind of abstraction? Read the verse in its context before answering.
Sorry Servant, but I have spent much time recently going through all of this with Edgar. I have a cold at the moment & I don't want to do it all again.
I do believe in messengers (as the Hebrew states), a word with many meaning and I am looking at the texts and differentiating between exalted humans, servants, spirits, Visions (that make no material claim for messengers), etc.
I am not attempting to read between the lines or adding 2+2 in case I come up with 5.
For example, who are - "the host of Jehovah" - directly from scripture?
How do you know that the messenger ahead of Israel in the exodus is a spirit being?
Are you assuming that the "him" in psalms 8 indicates a person of some kind? One point here and with others that Edgar has mentioned carry an assumption - that stars = angels, but why? How about messenger = planets or stars?
Couldn't Daniel 4:17 be referring to astrology? Take into account the Persian location and the function of Maggi.
We can flip all those questions around can't we why would the burden of proof be on me? Joshua ch.5 v.14 NIV"The commander of the Lord’s army replied, “Take off your sandals, for the place where you are standing is holy.” And Joshua did so." if you are claiming that this is simply another fallen man it seems that the burden of proof would be on you to demonstrate that? Daniel ch.4 v.13 NIV"‘I was looking in the visions [n]in my mind as I lay on my bed, and behold, an angelic watcher, a holy one, descended from heaven." Here it specifically states that this sentinel is from heaven ,it seem to me that the one claiming that this is a reference to sinful humans needs to provide evidence to back this up the claim that these heavenly representatives of JEHOVAH are superhuman is not the extraordinary one also if you are claiming that this sentinel is a reference to some kind of abstraction make your case why aren't all the persons mentioned in this vision not likewise to be considered abstractions? certainly the claim that 'him' in Psalm 8 refers to man is merely a straightforward reading of the text and the burden of proof would be on the one claiming otherwise. I suspect that we will both leave this exchange as we entered it but I am intrigued as to how anyone can read these scriptures and see in them a reference to mere men. Genesis ch.3v.22NIV"And the Lord God said, “The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever.”" Is JEHOVAH addressing a pre adamite race of men here or the ground perhaps? Go ahead make your case. Genesis ch.11 v.7 NIV "Come, let us go down and confuse their language so they will not understand each other.”" Is this refering to an extraterrestrial race of men that JEHOVAH has in his service or the ground perhaps? If you think you can demonstrate any thing like this or some other theory from scripture go for it.
"Another important context for seeing the connection between stars and divinity is Isa 14:12-15, where a divinized king’s hubris is punished by Yahweh with expulsion from among the stars. See Mattias Albani, “The Downfall of Helel, the Son of Dawn: Aspects of Royal Ideology in Isa 14:12–13,” in The Fall of the Angels (ed. Christoph Auffarth and Loren T. Stuckenbruck; Themes in Biblical Narrative; Leiden: Brill, 2004), 62–86."
Well I have Daniel's interpretation that is pretty much all the Data I need you are aware of my position re:scriptural inspiration. Astrology ,and all other forms of divination, were forbidden on pain of death among the ancient Hebrews. BTW I hope you don't consider any of my queries facetious I have come across similar claims to from others e.g some believe that there was a preAdamite race of men who became so corrupt that JEHOVAH end up wiping them out completely. They claim that the waters mentioned at the beginning of Genesis ch.1 are remnants of a first flood sent to wipe out that previous civilisation, and that the flood of Noah's day was actually the second global deluge. Fortunately for our race JEHOVAH found Noah according to this theory.
This king is deluding himself he is a man and not a God and JEHOVAH soon disabused him of this notion. That is of no help with our sentinels at Daniel who are called saints by JEHOVAH'S spirit and have delegated authority from JEHOVAH. 2kings ch.22v.19-21 ASV"19And Micaiah'said, Therefore hear thou the word of Jehovah: I saw Jehovah sitting on his throne, and all the host of heaven standing by him on his right hand and on his left. 20And Jehovah said, Who shall entice Ahab, that he may go up and fall at Ramoth-gilead? And one said on this manner; and another said on that manner. 21And there came forth a SPIRIT, and stood before Jehovah, and said, I will entice him." 2Kings ch.6 v.17ASV"And he answered, Fear not; for they that are with us are more than they that are with them. 17And Elisha prayed, and said, Jehovah, I pray thee, open his eyes, that he may see. And Jehovah opened the eyes of the young man; and he saw: and, behold, the mountain was full of horses and chariots of fire round about Elisha. " You asked who are the host over which the angel who encountered Joshua is prince perhaps these might help.
Daniel ch.4 v.26ASV"“And inasmuch as THEY gave the command to leave the stump and roots of the tree, your kingdom shall be assured to you, after you come to know that HEAVEN[g] rules." This is clearly telling us who these saints are they are.JEHOVAH'S heavenly representatives,worship of the heavenly bodies was a capital offense for Jews.
The interpretation of dreams is not a Hebraic occupation, but something done for the benefit of Egyptian tradition and akkadian tradition.
So would you say that dream interpretation is not a form of divining?
The burden of proof is definitely on you as you are reading into a text, such as Joshua. It clearly states that this is a "man", but does not use the term "messenger". Remember what I said about reading between the lines & also potentially confirmation bias.
As for Daniel, you really need to look at the Aramaic and the Akkadian tradition behind it - "an angelic watcher" is an interpretation as the Aramaic term means "watcher" / "night watchman". I have seen web sites that claim that an angelic interpretation is based on Akkadian tradition, but that would be a misunderstanding and conflation with later Hebraic tradition and in any case, these sites never reference any specific texts & I cannot find it.
Genesis 3 has a talking Serpent - https://youtu.be/GajLteR468M
I will let you work out who the "us" is here.
For Gen 11 v 7 the scholarship is extensive and varied. I have to say that I am not sure but one also has to take into account possible word play - https://biblehub.com/text/genesis/11-4.htm
How would that interpretation spring from anything I said? there is no record of anyone behaving in Elijah's presence the way Joshua behaved toward his Lord. Or the way manoah behaved when he realised that he was in the presence of JEHOVAH'S angel Judges13:22
As for JEHOVAH'S human host Joshua would be their prince Joshua ch.1v.17N8V"Just as we fully obeyed Moses, so we will obey you. Only may the LORD your God be with you as he was with Moses."
Where is this man from and if his rulership is purely in the human realm how come we don't know his name. And hie is never mentioned again. What of Joshua's behaviour toward this mere man. No the burden is on you see exodus3 or is this a man here as well
As for Daniel's interpretation the Akkadian astrologers failed to provide a satisfactory interpretation of the king's dream and thus are not reliable guides in this matter. JEHOVAH'S prophet is the only reliable guide re:the interpretation God's word At Daniel 4:26 he plainly states that they are heavenly representatives of the most high God.
Joshua5:13-15NIV"Now when Joshua was near Jericho, he looked up and saw a man standing in front of him with a drawn sword in his hand. Joshua went up to him and asked, “Are you for us or for our enemies?”
14“Neither,” he replied, “but as commander of the army of the Lord I have now come.” Then Joshua fell facedown to the ground in reverence, and asked him, “What message does my Lord e have for his servant?”
15The commander of the Lord’s army replied, “Take off your sandals, for the place where you are standing is holy.” And Joshua DID SO. Compare Exodus ch.3 no the burden is definitely on you.
Genesis 18:1-2 ASV"1And Jehovah appeared unto him by the oaks of Mamre, as he sat in the tent door in the heat of the day; 2and he lifted up his eyes and looked, and, lo, three men stood over against him: and when he saw them, he ran to meet them from the tent door, and bowed himself to the earth, " Just as men are a times called angels angels are at times called men.
Duncan, earlier you talked about Daniel possibly "divining." Servant has already addressed some of this point, but I briefly wanted to add that neither Joseph in Genesis nor Daniel took credit for interpreting dreams. What did they both exclaim?
See Genesis 40:8; Daniel 2:27-28.
Anyway, divination was a sin. See 1 Sam. 15:22-23.
Technically, Duncan asked whether dream interpretation is a form of divining. However, as I said previously, Genesis and Daniel report that God is the rightful interpreter of dreams and prophecy
Matthew26:53ZNIV"Do you think I cannot call on my Father, and he will at ONCE put at my disposal more than twelve legions of angels?" Are these twelve legions of human warriors? What about Genesis 3:22 who is the us which includes JEHOVAH. As for the talking serpent I've seen a talking dog. If mere men can produce such illusions. Imagine what a rogue angel could do. See Revelation ch.12v.7-9
Numbers CH.22V.28NIV"Then the LORD opened the donkey’s mouth, and it said to Balaam, “What have I done to you to make you beat me these three times?”" here JEHOVAH'S angel is producing the illusion of a talking animal.
Judges ch.7 v.13-15 NIV"Gideon arrived just as a man was telling a friend his dream. “I had a dream,” he was saying. “A round loaf of barley bread came tumbling into the Midianite camp. It struck the tent with such force that the tent overturned and collapsed.”
14His friend responded, “This can be nothing other than the sword of Gideon son of Joash, the Israelite. God has given the Midianites and the whole camp into his hands.”
15When Gideon heard the dream and its interpretation, he bowed down and worshiped. He returned to the camp of Israel and called out, “Get up! The Lord has given the Midianite camp into your hands.”
Then I went and dwelt at the oaks of Mamre which were in Hebron—more like to the northeast of Hebron—and I built an altar there. I offered on it a burnt-offering and a cereal offering to God Most High. I ate and I drank there, I and all the people of my household, and I sent for (and) invited Mamre, Arnem, and Eshkol, the three Amorite brothers (who were) my friends, and they ate together with me and drank with me.
People who lived in these lands recognized the trees as the life of the land.
Abraham was circumcised under the trees of Mamre and if you read the account in Joshua, the nation was again circumcised near Jericho, probably at the trees. Were the city dwellers cutting them down? - we cannot know.
Compare - Judges 6:11.
What I find most interesting is that I cannot find any Levitical instructions for a priest or even the high priest to specifically remove his sandals in the tabernacle.
I said, don't confuse the time line. What about Joseph?
Did I say it was Ok?
Daniel was taught how to do it, so you argue it any way you like about who is and isn't authorized to do it. Still does not change what chapter one says.
Allow me to clarify. I don't see what the time line has to do with divination and the Hebrew bible: I've never read where Jah thought well of divination, at any time.
As for Joseph, see Genesis 40:8. He did not take credit for interpreting dreams, but gave all credit to God.
Okay, that was part of Daniel's training, I agree, just like Moses was trained in Egyptian wisdom. But please read all of Dan. 1:17 and chapter 2 of Daniel.
According to 1:17, who gave Daniel the skill and wisdom he had? Did he interpret dreams on his own? Seems pretty clear to me that what Daniel did was anything but divining. He could not have been desirable to God if he practiced divination. You know that is a form of spiritism, right?
There is no scripture that shows Elijah riding a flaming Chariot that is a common mistake read the text again the chariot was doubtless the sign of an angelic presence. Abraham addresses their leader as JEHOVAH and he speaks for JEHOVAH in the first person. Genesis18:1"Now the LORD appeared to [a]Abraham by the [b]oaks of Mamre, while he was sitting at the tent door in the heat of the day." Genesis19:1NIV"Now the two ANGELS came to Sodom in the evening as Lot was sitting at the gate of Sodom. When Lot saw them, he stood up to meet them and [a]bowed down with his face to the ground. " Here to of the visitors are specifically spoken of as angels
Genesis ch.18 v.13 NIV"Then they said to him, “Where is your wife Sarah?” And he said, “There, in the tent.” 10He said, “I will certainly return to you [m]at this time next year; and behold, your wife Sarah will have a son.” And Sarah was listening at the tent door, which was behind him."
The priestly garments are very precisely described at exodus 28 right down to linen under garments but no mention of footwear why might that be you think Matthew ch.28:17-31NIV" You blind fools! Which is greater: the gold, or the temple that makes the gold sacred? 18You also say, ‘If anyone swears by the altar, it means nothing; but anyone who swears by the gift on the altar is bound by that oath.’ 19You blind men! Which is greater: the gift, or the altar that makes the gift sacred? 20Therefore, anyone who swears by the altar swears by it and by everything on it. 21And anyone who swears by the temple swears by it and by the one who dwells in it. " the ancient Hebrews only JEHOVAH'S presence sanctified a location nothing else.
Here is the Elijah verse 2Kings2:10-12NKJV"So he said, “You have asked a hard thing. Nevertheless, if you see me when I am taken from you, it shall be so for you; but if not, it shall not be so.” 11Then it happened, as they continued on and talked, that suddenly a chariot of fire appeared with horses of fire, and separated the two of them; and Elijah went up by a WHIRLWIND into heaven.
12And Elisha saw it, and he cried out, “My father, my father, the chariot of Israel and its horsemen!” So he saw him no more. And he took hold of his own clothes and tore them into two pieces. " These horsemen mentioned by Elisha given the context how likely is it that these are mere men?
Because an English translation says Angels then they are definitely "Angels"????
You do know about all the controversies, textual variants and issues in Genesis 18 ????!
That was precisely why I reference our oldest interpretation of part of the chapter, and they clearly recognised the 3 as lords, friends and therefore most likely messengers at 19:1. As this is also talked about in the text I linked.
http://dssenglishbible.com/genesis%2019.htm the standing before is a literary device for a legal setting. At this point the case is closed with the destruction.
"These horsemen mentioned by Elisha given the context how likely is it that these are mere men?" - not likely , but they are also unlikely to be "Messengers", they are more likely a literary device.
3. My lord] R.V. marg. O Lord. The Heb. word so rendered has received three different translations.
(1) “O Lord,” as in Genesis 18:27; Genesis 18:30-32, Adonâi, addressed to God. So the Massoretic Heb. text, adding the word “holy,” as a note, to safeguard the meaning and the pronunciation.
(2) “my lords,” adonâi, as if Abraham addressed his three visitors together: compare the plural in Genesis 18:4-5.
(3) “my lord” (with change of vocalization), adônî (cf. Genesis 23:6; Genesis 23:11). The sing. is used in Genesis 18:3 (“thy servant”). This third rendering seems the most probable: (a) there is no sign of Abraham’s recognizing the real character of the strangers; (b) it would seem probable that he instinctively recognized one of them as the superior in position, though he does not perceive in him the manifestation of Jehovah until after Genesis 18:15.
https://biblehub.com/text/genesis/18-22.htm
Does NOT say that TWO men left. Cf. Genesis 10:9, Exodus 9:13 לִפְנֵ֣י
A literary device as per your assertion not if we let the book speak for itself. Psalms34:7NIV",The angel of the Lord encamps around those who fear him,
and he delivers them." It is more likely that Elisha saw a manifestation of this principle.
Servant, you know why the bible is called the bible? Many books. And you are not letting the book (singular) speak for itself.
I do not know the extent of the vocabulary used in 2 kings, I have not looked into it.
Search online for pictures of tornadoes combined with lightning. It is not such an unusual phenomenon. There is another word for lightning in Hebrew but could this be a more graphic/dramatic explanation of the phenomenon?
Here's the Septuagint rendering "καὶ εἶπεν Κύριε, εἰ ἄρα εὗρον χάριν ἐναντίον σου, μὴ παρέλθῃς τὸν παῖδά σου." My Lord singular. When exactly Abraham realised they were superhuman seems a bit beside the point verse one already let's the reader know that this is a superhuman manifestation of JEHOVAH.
Called "the Bible" by whom,not JEHOVAH. If you want to understand JEHOVAH'S word you need start looking at it as a single work by a single author . The men used by JEHOVAH to pen this work are merely his scribes. The term divine library is a good summation of what appears to be the case from a purely human perspective. But from the perspective of an informed faith the Book is one
What the text says angels so it must mean men? Here is the rule of interpretation nameless malakhim/aggelos are superhuman until proven otherwise not the other way around.
Genesis ch.3:8,YLT"And they hear the sound of JEHOVAH God walking up and down in the garden at the breeze of the day, and the man and his wife hide themselves from the face of JEHOVAH God in the midst of the trees of the garden" is it your position that this was a human Malakh/aggelos representing JEHOVAH in this verse?
Matthew ch.24:36KJV"But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only. " The aggelos in this verse,are they Men,literary device(BTW this literary device have a name?),stars and planets? Anything is possible I suppose but what is likely the case?
Sorry Servant but I am not playing the systematic theology game anymore. There are many approaches to biblical interpretation. Gen 18:1 one is a superhuman manifestation of Yehovah, agreed, but verse 2 is talking about 3 men.
Yes, that's what the LXX says, what about the Peshitta and other ancient witnesses?
"If you want to understand JEHOVAH'S word you need start looking at it as a single work by a single author" and which bible book tells you that exactly?
All scripture is inspired, but we get no list.
I did not say "it must mean men", however CH18 DOES say men.
Why are you trying to put words in my mouth. Take the Genesis account at its word. https://biblehub.com/text/genesis/6-9.htm
This is why you have to do mental gymnastics and also why systematic theology does not work.
Take Matthew ch.24:36 at its word too. I have no problem with the Angel that killed 18500 in a single night either.
In fact just, take the bible at its word and stop playing mental games.
There is one right way to acquire the mind of the true author of the book. And that does not involve playing games of any kind. As to their out ward appearance they are men for example in the Ezekiel's vision JEHOVAH is shown to have the appearance of a man but being the spirit being we know that his real appearance differs significantly from anything in the human or superhuman creation see Ezekiel 1:26 so not everything in the scriptures is to be taken literally this superhuman manifestation had the appearance of men so the writer is being descriptive ,here is an actual literary device it's called a metaphor. As I explained the sacred word never refers to mere sinful men as a manifestation of JEHOVAH Never. So you have not being insisting all along that because the text calls this superhuman manifestation of JEHOVAH men that this must be taken literally and that there is no possibility that the term men is being used metaphorically? Well I'm glad to here that. Well you certainly entitled to your opinion of course but from my sensibilities all the mental contortions have been coming from your end. But that is just the way things tend to work.
In the NIV you seem to like it has a heading above Ezekiel chapter 1. It says - Ezekiel’s Inaugural Vision. A vision that at V26 says "a figure like that of a man".
So it's a vision with someone like a man, so tell me how that equates to Gen 18, and where in gen 18 is a manifestation of Jehovah.
JEHOVAH does not look like a man Duncan so this verse is not to be understood literally Just like genesis 18's reference to these angels as men is not to be understood literally. Verse 1 states plainly that JEHOVAH appeared to Abraham ,also not to be understood literally ,but it does let the reader know that the phenomenon being witnessed by Abraham is of a super physical sort
Exodus ch.24:3ASV",And Moses came and told the people all the words of JEHOVAH, and all the ordinances: and all the people answered with one voice, and said, All the words which JEHOVAH hath spoken will we do." Moses Quoted JEHOVAH and the people(likely represented by their tribal elders) acknowledged JEHOVAH as the source of the law.
Matthew Ch.24:7ASV"And David spake unto Jehovah when he saw the angel that smote the people, and said, Lo, I have sinned, and I have done perversely; but these sheep, what have they done? let thy hand, I pray thee, be against me, and against my father's house." So this angel that smote the people, a man? A literary device? As to why the Septuagint is to be given primacy the inspired N.T writers quote from Septuagint.
Numbers ch.12:7,8ASV"My servant Moses is not so; he is faithful in all my house:
8with him will I speak mouth to mouth, even manifestly, and not in dark speeches; and the form of Jehovah shall he behold: wherefore then were ye not afraid to speak against my servant, against Moses?" Acts ch.7:35 NIV"“This is the same Moses they had rejected with the words, ‘Who made you ruler and judge?’ He was sent to be their ruler and deliverer by God himself, through the angel who appeared to him in the bush."
Just because the text is written in Greek does not mean that they are quoting a set of scrolls that was freely available. They heard the texts in Hebrew at the "Moses seat".
Exodus ch.24:3 NIV"Exodus24:1LORD said to Moses, “Come up to the LORD, you and Aaron, Nadab and Abihu, and seventy of the elders of Israel. You are to worship at a distance, 2but Moses alone is to approach the LORD; the others must not come near. And the people may not come up with him.”
3When Moses went and told the people all the LORD’s words and laws, they with one voice, “Everything the LORD has said we will do.” " What problem do you imagine that this verse poses for me? Genesis ch.18:1NIV"The LORD appeared to Abraham near the great trees of Mamre while he was sitting at the entrance to his tent in the heat of the day. " So what? do you suppose that angels are immobile or some such thing? You do know that angels are capable of movement right?
2Samuel24:1ASV"And again the anger of Jehovah was kindled against Israel, and he moved David against them, saying, Go, number Israel and Judah." Here is the the Expositor's commentary on the verse "
Bible > Commentary > EXP > 2 Samuel ◄ 2 Samuel 24 ► Expositor's Bible Commentary 2 Samuel 24:1 And again the anger of the LORD was kindled against Israel, and he moved David against them to say, Go, number Israel and Judah. CHAPTER XXXII.
THE NUMBERING OF ISRAEL.
2 Samuel 24:1-25THOUGH David's life was now drawing to its close, neither his sins nor his chastisements were yet exhausted. One of his chief offences was committed when he was old and grey-headed. There can be little doubt that what is recorded in this chapter took place toward the close of his life; the word "again" at the beginning indicates that it was later in time than the event which gave rise to the last expression of God's displeasure to the nation. Surely there can be little ground for the doctrine of perfectionism, otherwise David, whose religion was so earnest and so deep, would have been nearer it now than this chapter shows that he was.
The offence consisted in taking a census of the people. At first it is difficult to see what there was in this that was so sinful; yet highly sinful it was in the judgment of God, in the judgment of Joab, and at last in the judgment of David too; it will be necessary, therefore, to examine the subject very carefully if we would understand clearly what constituted the great sin of David.
The origin of the proceeding was remarkable. It may be said to have had a double, or rather a triple, origin: God, David, and Satan, or, as some propose to render in place of Satan, "an enemy."
In Samuel we read that "the Lord's anger was again kindled against Israel." The nation required a chastisement. It needed a smart stroke of the rod to make it pause and think how it was offending God. We do not require to know very specially what it was that displeased God in a nation that had been so ready to side with Absalom and drive God's anointed from the throne. They were far from steadfast in their allegiance to God, easily drawn from the path of duty; and all that it is important for us to know is simply that at this particular time they were farther astray than usual, and more in need of chastisement. The cup of sin had filled up so far that God behooved to interpose.
For this end "the Lord moved David against them to say, Go, number Israel and Judah." The action of God in the matter, like His action in sinful matters generally, was that He permitted it to take place. He allowed David's sinful feeling to come as a factor into His scheme with a view to the chastising of the people. We have seen many times in this history how God is represented as doing things and saying things which He does not do nor say directly, but which He takes up into His plan, with a view to the working out of some great end in the future. "
One can also Consider JEHOVAH's Comments to Satan in the book of Job Ch.2,3 NIV"Then the LORD said to Satan, “Have you considered my servant Job? There is no one on earth like him; he is blameless and upright, a man who fears God and shuns evil. And he still maintains his integrity, though you incited me against him to ruin him without any reason.”" Here JEHOVAH in effect takes the blame for the evil that befell his servant Job even though he was not directly responsible. As for Exodus ch.24:3 the verse does not mention any name at all as object of the people's reply so I am not sure what you are getting at. But whether one wants to make a Moses (who would seem the most contextually probable) or JEHOVAH I don't see an issue either way.
I didn't hear anything that refuted the BIBLE's record that Christians were recognised as a distinct sect in the first century by Jew and Gentile alike Acts ch.11:26NIV"and when he found him, he brought him to Antioch. So for a whole year Barnabas and Saul met with the church and taught great numbers of people. The disciples were called Christians first at Antioch."(and likely you are familiar with Jewish historian Josephus) BTW as is the case today Judaism was not a monolith, so were there some who might be inclined to view Christians as falling within the faith although being in error in certain particulars? Probably See acts ch.5:34-39 The Bible tells us that most were much less charitable Acts ch.28:22"But we want to hear what your views are, for we know that people everywhere are talking against this sect.”"
The point is they never quote from any of those later translations that you are mentioning ,and those quotes were selected by divine inspiration. The Spirit could make any translation available.
As To whether JEHOVAH needed a report from Moses to know the people's response. Likely you know the answer to that as well as I do, but JEHOVAH was dealing with the nation in a way that would reinforce Moses' mediatorship Exodus ch.20:19NIIV"And they said unto Moses, Speak thou with us, and we will hear; but let not God speak with us, lest we die. "
In genesis 18, when does Abraham look up? Who does he see BEFORE he looks?
Does the quote you provided about Christ have context that is specific to Jesus? Since Christos just means a messiah. https://www.blueletterbible.org/Comm/ice_thomas/Mat24-25/Mat24-25_Part06.cfm
I'm not following you what about Moses action made no sense? Moses was alone at the bush when JEHOVAH'S angel spoke with him his reaction made perfect sense then. When JEHOVAH'S angel came down on the mountain in a cloud the people understood what was being said exodus ch.19:9NIV"The LORD said to Moses, “I am going to come to you in a dense cloud, so that the people will HEAR me speaking with you and will always put their trust in you.” Then Moses told the LORD what the people had said."" So I see no parallels with John.
Verse 1of Genesis 18 makes a generalisation which is subsequently clarified by the following verses. We see something similar with Ezekiel's vision verse 1 of ch.1 generalises and the subsequent verses clarify the opening statement. I can't remember mentioning anything about a sword you might be getting me mixed up with someone else.
102 comments:
Genesis1:27NIV"So God created mankind in his own image,
in the image of God he created them;
male and female he created them."
Is the argument that "the man" is correct rather than simply "man"? That certainly seems consistent with the use of אֹת֑וֹ.
Sean, I think Bandstra is just talking about understanding the Hebrew: he's addressing why the article occurs in 1:27. NET makes a similar observation in its footnote for the verse.
As he says, the noun is also collective and these words refer back to 1:26.
Genesis3:22,23NIV"And the LORD God said, “The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever.”So the LORD God banished him from the Garden of Eden to work the ground from which he had been taken."
Of course this would include the woman.
Thanks, that is one point I'm trying to make with the distinction between ha-adam and Adam.
Just received an interlinear ESV Hebrew Translation to cross reference this. Thanks for being so synchronistic to my personal research projects, as ever, Edgar.
Interesting that NWT includes the article in 1:27a whereas the ESV does not. So would you say the removal of the article in English in 27a actually accentuates the force of the article in the original Hebrew?
Terence, glad some of the blog posts have synced with your research interests. Mine are varied, but analysis of biblical grammar/words is my favorite thing to do.
I would agree with your last statement. Use of the article, whether in Greek or Hebrew, can be complicated. For example, we know that the article in Greek obviously does not necessarily come across when translating works like ho theos (for example). But I think removing it could accentuate the article's force.
Also good catch with the NWT/ESV comparison.
Gen 1:27 God CREATES a new MANKIND. JOHN 1:1 God creates a new MANKIND.
Gen 1:26 GOD MAKES man from the GROUND and he has the IMAGE of the GROUND and the IMAGE of GOD. "OUR IMAGE".
How you get that from John 1:1 is a mystery to me. Nothing said about mankind there at all.
The Bible never says man has the image of the ground but it does say, image and likeness of God. Man is made from the dust/clods of the earth (ground) but that is the material cause of humanity. Doesn't mean that humans image the ground anymore than animals do.
Nothing about mankind in Gen 1:1 either, is there?
But you know where the ultimate expression of that creation is.
Same for John, you just refuse to accept it.
You do also know of those that equate the imagery to creating a statue of clay, right?
https://biblehub.com/text/exodus/20-4.htm
I don't believe Gen. 1:1 has the creation of humankind in mind, just the heavens and earth, not the things in it.
Jn. 1:1 mentions the beginning, the Word, God, and the Word was a god/God. These are reasons why I don't accept the idea that John 1:1 is talking about humankind.
Job 4:16,17
I am familiar with the various possibilities set forth to explain "image" and "likeness." Here's one article: https://cbmw.org/2020/06/10/humanity-as-the-divine-image-in-genesis-126-28/
Did God rest before of after making man?
Genesis 2:1-3 (NKJV): Thus the heavens and the earth, and all the host of them, were finished. 2 And on the seventh day God ended His work which He had done, and He rested on the seventh day from all His work which He had done. 3 Then God blessed the seventh day and sanctified it, because in it He rested from all His work which God had created and made.
Hebrews 4:4 (NKJV): For He has spoken in a certain place of the seventh day in this way: “And God rested on the seventh day from all His works”
https://hermeneutics.stackexchange.com/questions/8963/in-genesis-27-was-adam-created-after-the-seventh-day
I read the hermeneutics page. I t was interesting that virtually everyone there said Adam was not created on or after the seventh day. That is what I also believe. The Bible seems pretty clear that God rested from his works on the seventh day. I quoted two places, but see Exodus 20:11 and surrounding verses.
As some pointed out when addressing the OP on the hermeneutics site, it's obvious that Genesis 2 should not be read sequentially plus show me in the Bible where it teaches that God rested on any day but the seventh. To say otherwise would make the Sabbath law nonsensical.
Well if you watch the debate, NO ONE is arguing for a 2nd cent dating.
Also one has to understand the monetary wealth embodied in the DSS manuscripts in toto.
Vermes was convinced that many came from Jerusalem, not from Qumran.
As an analogy, I went to a castle in wales that had a library of medieval books & along with it a book of accounting. The decision on one particular book was whether to purchase it or a neighboring farm instead.
What are you talking about? Man was made at the end of day 6 - THE FINAL ACT, and that was the question I asked, or was that too obvious? Then he rests on the 7th. This is still relevant to John.
What are you talking about? I believe man was made on the sixth day, but God rested on the seventh. I never said any differently.
To recap, you asked: Did God rest before of after making man?
My answer via quoting scripture was that God rested on the seventh day. That's what every scripture that I quoted or cited states. So, if God rested on the seventh day, he must have made man before that. Hence, he made man on the sixth day. Is that clear enough?
My comments about reading Genesis sequentially were based on the link you supplied. Someone there was suggesting that Adam might have been created after God rested. Maybe what I said becomes even clearer now.
Maybe I should have answered the question directly from the start rather than quoting the NKJV
Genesis ch.9 v.2 NIV"The fear and dread of you will fall on all the beasts of the earth, and on all the birds in the sky, on every creature that moves along the ground, and on all the fish in the sea; they are given into your hands. "
Genesis: ch.9 v.6 NIV"“Whoever sheds human blood,
by humans shall their blood be shed;
for in the image of God
has God made mankind."
Among all the physical creation Man is unique there is nothing in the physical creation apart from man that bears image of JEHOVAH and his superhuman lieutenants.
John ch.1 v. 10 NIV"He was in the world, and though the world was made through him, the world did not recognize him." The world which was made through him does not know him thus it is obviously not the new creation,of which he declares
John ch.10 v. 14 NIV"“I am the good shepherd; I know my sheep and my sheep KNOW me"
You are just making stuff up, again.
"JEHOVAH and his superhuman lieutenants." - evidence please?
So you don't believe in angels?
Joshua ch.5 v.13 ASV"And he said, Nay; but as prince of the host of Jehovah am I now come. And Joshua fell on his face to the earth, and did worship, and said unto him, What saith my lord unto his servant? "
What is your explanation for this verse?
Or this verse
Exodus ch.23 v.21 ASV"Behold, I send an angel before thee, to keep thee by the way, and to bring thee into the place which I have prepared. 21Take ye heed before him, and hearken unto his voice; provoke him not; for he will not pardon your transgression: for my name is in him."
Psalm ch.8v.5 ASV"For thou hast made him but little lower than God, And crownest him with glory and honor."
Obviously if man is operating on a lower level than the angels it follows that they bear a greater resemblance to JEHOVAH than man does.
Daniel ch.4 v.17ESV"The sentence is by the decree of the watchers, the decision by the word of the holy ones, to the end that the living may know that the Most High rules the kingdom of men and gives it to whom he will and sets over it the lowliest of men."
Tell me who are these saints/sentinels?
Mere men? Some kind of abstraction?
Read the verse in its context before answering.
Sorry Servant, but I have spent much time recently going through all of this with Edgar. I have a cold at the moment & I don't want to do it all again.
I do believe in messengers (as the Hebrew states), a word with many meaning and I am looking at the texts and differentiating between exalted humans, servants, spirits, Visions (that make no material claim for messengers), etc.
I am not attempting to read between the lines or adding 2+2 in case I come up with 5.
For example, who are - "the host of Jehovah" - directly from scripture?
How do you know that the messenger ahead of Israel in the exodus is a spirit being?
Are you assuming that the "him" in psalms 8 indicates a person of some kind? One point here and with others that Edgar has mentioned carry an assumption - that stars = angels, but why? How about messenger = planets or stars?
Couldn't Daniel 4:17 be referring to astrology? Take into account the Persian location and the function of Maggi.
https://biblehub.com/text/daniel/4-17.htm
I am not sure, because I do not have enough data, do you? Can you provide it please?
We can flip all those questions around can't we why would the burden of proof be on me?
Joshua ch.5 v.14 NIV"The commander of the Lord’s army replied, “Take off your sandals, for the place where you are standing is holy.” And Joshua did so." if you are claiming that this is simply another fallen man it seems that the burden of proof would be on you to demonstrate that?
Daniel ch.4 v.13 NIV"‘I was looking in the visions [n]in my mind as I lay on my bed, and behold, an angelic watcher, a holy one, descended from heaven."
Here it specifically states that this sentinel is from heaven ,it seem to me that the one claiming that this is a reference to sinful humans needs to provide evidence to back this up the claim that these heavenly representatives of JEHOVAH are superhuman is not the extraordinary one also if you are claiming that this sentinel is a reference to some kind of abstraction make your case why aren't all the persons mentioned in this vision not likewise to be considered abstractions?
certainly the claim that 'him' in Psalm 8 refers to man is merely a straightforward reading of the text and the burden of proof would be on the one claiming otherwise.
I suspect that we will both leave this exchange as we entered it but I am intrigued as to how anyone can read these scriptures and see in them a reference to mere men.
Genesis ch.3v.22NIV"And the Lord God said, “The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever.”"
Is JEHOVAH addressing a pre adamite race of men here or the ground perhaps?
Go ahead make your case.
Genesis ch.11 v.7 NIV "Come, let us go down and confuse their language so they will not understand each other.”"
Is this refering to an extraterrestrial race of men that JEHOVAH has in his service or the ground perhaps?
If you think you can demonstrate any thing like this or some other theory from scripture go for it.
"Another important context for seeing the connection between stars and divinity is Isa 14:12-15, where a divinized king’s hubris is punished by Yahweh with expulsion from among the stars. See Mattias Albani, “The Downfall of Helel, the Son of Dawn: Aspects of Royal Ideology in Isa 14:12–13,” in The Fall of the Angels (ed. Christoph Auffarth and Loren T. Stuckenbruck; Themes in Biblical Narrative; Leiden: Brill, 2004), 62–86."
Well I have Daniel's interpretation that is pretty much all the Data I need you are aware of my position re:scriptural inspiration. Astrology ,and all other forms of divination, were forbidden on pain of death among the ancient Hebrews.
BTW I hope you don't consider any of my queries facetious I have come across similar claims to from others e.g some believe that there was a preAdamite race of men who became so corrupt that JEHOVAH end up wiping them out completely. They claim that the waters mentioned at the beginning of Genesis ch.1 are remnants of a first flood sent to wipe out that previous civilisation, and that the flood of Noah's day was actually the second global deluge. Fortunately for our race JEHOVAH found Noah according to this theory.
This king is deluding himself he is a man and not a God and JEHOVAH soon disabused him of this notion. That is of no help with our sentinels at Daniel who are called saints by JEHOVAH'S spirit and have delegated authority from JEHOVAH.
2kings ch.22v.19-21 ASV"19And Micaiah'said, Therefore hear thou the word of Jehovah: I saw Jehovah sitting on his throne, and all the host of heaven standing by him on his right hand and on his left. 20And Jehovah said, Who shall entice Ahab, that he may go up and fall at Ramoth-gilead? And one said on this manner; and another said on that manner. 21And there came forth a SPIRIT, and stood before Jehovah, and said, I will entice him."
2Kings ch.6 v.17ASV"And he answered, Fear not; for they that are with us are more than they that are with them. 17And Elisha prayed, and said, Jehovah, I pray thee, open his eyes, that he may see. And Jehovah opened the eyes of the young man; and he saw: and, behold, the mountain was full of horses and chariots of fire round about Elisha. "
You asked who are the host over which the angel who encountered Joshua is prince perhaps these might help.
Daniel ch.4 v.26ASV"“And inasmuch as THEY gave the command to leave the stump and roots of the tree, your kingdom shall be assured to you, after you come to know that HEAVEN[g] rules."
This is clearly telling us who these saints are they are.JEHOVAH'S heavenly representatives,worship of the heavenly bodies was a capital offense for Jews.
Is that what Daniel teaches you?
https://biblehub.com/text/daniel/1-17.htm
So Daniel had the ability interpret visions and dreams. But this was before he dealt with any of the documented accounts.
https://ia801208.us.archive.org/27/items/Oppenheim1956AssyrianDreamBook/Oppenheim_1956_Assyrian_Dream_Book.pdf
https://www.penn.museum/sites/journal/586/
The interpretation of dreams is not a Hebraic occupation, but something done for the benefit of Egyptian tradition and akkadian tradition.
So would you say that dream interpretation is not a form of divining?
The burden of proof is definitely on you as you are reading into a text, such as Joshua. It clearly states that this is a "man", but does not use the term "messenger". Remember what I said about reading between the lines & also potentially confirmation bias.
As for Daniel, you really need to look at the Aramaic and the Akkadian tradition behind it - "an angelic watcher" is an interpretation as the Aramaic term means "watcher" / "night watchman". I have seen web sites that claim that an angelic interpretation is based on Akkadian tradition, but that would be a misunderstanding and conflation with later Hebraic tradition and in any case, these sites never reference any specific texts & I cannot find it.
Genesis 3 has a talking Serpent - https://youtu.be/GajLteR468M
I will let you work out who the "us" is here.
For Gen 11 v 7 the scholarship is extensive and varied. I have to say that I am not sure but one also has to take into account possible word play - https://biblehub.com/text/genesis/11-4.htm
https://biblehub.com/text/joshua/6-21.htm - a host.
https://biblehub.com/text/deuteronomy/20-9.htm - a host.
https://biblehub.com/text/2_kings/2-11.htm - Was he an Angel?
You are reading quite a bit into these texts.
How would that interpretation spring from anything I said? there is no record of anyone behaving in Elijah's presence the way Joshua behaved toward his Lord. Or the way manoah behaved when he realised that he was in the presence of JEHOVAH'S angel Judges13:22
As for JEHOVAH'S human host Joshua would be their prince
Joshua ch.1v.17N8V"Just as we fully obeyed Moses, so we will obey you. Only may the LORD your God be with you as he was with Moses."
Where is this man from and if his rulership is purely in the human realm how come we don't know his name. And hie is never mentioned again. What of Joshua's behaviour toward this mere man. No the burden is on you see exodus3 or is this a man here as well
As for Daniel's interpretation the Akkadian astrologers failed to provide a satisfactory interpretation of the king's dream and thus are not reliable guides in this matter. JEHOVAH'S prophet is the only reliable guide re:the interpretation God's word
At Daniel 4:26 he plainly states that they are heavenly representatives of the most high God.
Joshua5:13-15NIV"Now when Joshua was near Jericho, he looked up and saw a man standing in front of him with a drawn sword in his hand. Joshua went up to him and asked, “Are you for us or for our enemies?”
14“Neither,” he replied, “but as commander of the army of the Lord I have now come.” Then Joshua fell facedown to the ground in reverence, and asked him, “What message does my Lord e have for his servant?”
15The commander of the Lord’s army replied, “Take off your sandals, for the place where you are standing is holy.” And Joshua DID SO.
Compare Exodus ch.3 no the burden is definitely on you.
Genesis 18:1-2 ASV"1And Jehovah appeared unto him by the oaks of Mamre, as he sat in the tent door in the heat of the day; 2and he lifted up his eyes and looked, and, lo, three men stood over against him: and when he saw them, he ran to meet them from the tent door, and bowed himself to the earth, "
Just as men are a times called angels angels are at times called men.
Duncan, earlier you talked about Daniel possibly "divining." Servant has already addressed some of this point, but I briefly wanted to add that neither Joseph in Genesis nor Daniel took credit for interpreting dreams. What did they both exclaim?
See Genesis 40:8; Daniel 2:27-28.
Anyway, divination was a sin. See 1 Sam. 15:22-23.
Technically, Duncan asked whether dream interpretation is a form of divining. However, as I said previously, Genesis and Daniel report that God is the rightful interpreter of dreams and prophecy
Matthew26:53ZNIV"Do you think I cannot call on my Father, and he will at ONCE put at my disposal more than twelve legions of angels?"
Are these twelve legions of human warriors?
What about Genesis 3:22 who is the us which includes JEHOVAH.
As for the talking serpent I've seen a talking dog. If mere men can produce such illusions. Imagine what a rogue angel could do.
See Revelation ch.12v.7-9
Numbers CH.22V.28NIV"Then the LORD opened the donkey’s mouth, and it said to Balaam, “What have I done to you to make you beat me these three times?”"
here JEHOVAH'S angel is producing the illusion of a talking animal.
Judges ch.7 v.13-15 NIV"Gideon arrived just as a man was telling a friend his dream. “I had a dream,” he was saying. “A round loaf of barley bread came tumbling into the Midianite camp. It struck the tent with such force that the tent overturned and collapsed.”
14His friend responded, “This can be nothing other than the sword of Gideon son of Joash, the Israelite. God has given the Midianites and the whole camp into his hands.”
15When Gideon heard the dream and its interpretation, he bowed down and worshiped. He returned to the camp of Israel and called out, “Get up! The Lord has given the Midianite camp into your hands.”
Servant, Elijah rides in a flaming chariot, was there an Angel in it with him?
I agree that the account of Joshuah does not tell us everything, that was the point of what I already made.
Yes, I thought you would get to Gen 18 that also says "men".
This is just like "types and antitypes" all over again.
Tell me where in the bible is it revealed as to the missing detail and the nature of the specific beings, the one in Joshua or the ones in Gen 18?
Probably tho oldest document that can be found that deals with Gen 18 is the genesis Apocryphon.
Then I went and dwelt at the oaks of Mamre which were in Hebron—more like to the northeast of Hebron—and I built an altar there. I offered on it a burnt-offering and a cereal offering to God Most High. I ate and I drank there, I and all the people of my household, and I sent for (and) invited Mamre, Arnem, and Eshkol, the three Amorite brothers (who were) my friends, and they ate together with me and drank with me.
https://pages.charlotte.edu/john-reeves/course-materials/rels-2104-hebrew-scripturesold-testament/translation-of-1q-genesis-apocryphon/
Sorry Edgar, there is no getting around it -
https://biblehub.com/text/daniel/1-17.htm
All the literature and wisdom.
The point here being the "literature".
"Egyptian priests removed their shoes out of respect for their gods. It was also the custom to remove sandals in the presence of superior rank."
https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.2752/175169608783489116
I am NOT posting this because I agree with it, but only to point out that the burning bush was most likely an acacia.
Also the arc of the covenant was made from acacia.
https://www.journals.uchicago.edu/doi/pdf/10.1086/473375
https://www.gotquestions.org/Shittim-in-the-Bible.html
Shittim, adjacent to Jericho and its acacia trees.
I absolutely agree that these places were set apart, and were recognized as special.
Tell me, is anything else in the bible made of acacia, other than "holy" utensils?
https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1111/j.1654-1103.2002.tb02043.x
People who lived in these lands recognized the trees as the life of the land.
Abraham was circumcised under the trees of Mamre and if you read the account in Joshua, the nation was again circumcised near Jericho, probably at the trees. Were the city dwellers cutting them down? - we cannot know.
Compare - Judges 6:11.
What I find most interesting is that I cannot find any Levitical instructions for a priest or even the high priest to specifically remove his sandals in the tabernacle.
As for 1 Sam. 15:22-23. please do not confuse the timeline.
Isaiah 8:19 is also very interesting.
Duncan, why ignore Daniel 2:27-28? 1:17 offers support for what I'm saying. And show me where divination was ever ok.
I said, don't confuse the time line. What about Joseph?
Did I say it was Ok?
Daniel was taught how to do it, so you argue it any way you like about who is and isn't authorized to do it. Still does not change what chapter one says.
Allow me to clarify. I don't see what the time line has to do with divination and the Hebrew bible: I've never read where Jah thought well of divination, at any time.
As for Joseph, see Genesis 40:8. He did not take credit for interpreting dreams, but gave all credit to God.
Okay, that was part of Daniel's training, I agree, just like Moses was trained in Egyptian wisdom. But please read all of Dan. 1:17 and chapter 2 of Daniel.
According to 1:17, who gave Daniel the skill and wisdom he had? Did he interpret dreams on his own? Seems pretty clear to me that what Daniel did was anything but divining. He could not have been desirable to God if he practiced divination. You know that is a form of spiritism, right?
There is no scripture that shows Elijah riding a flaming Chariot that is a common mistake read the text again the chariot was doubtless the sign of an angelic presence. Abraham addresses their leader as JEHOVAH and he speaks for JEHOVAH in the first person.
Genesis18:1"Now the LORD appeared to [a]Abraham by the [b]oaks of Mamre, while he was sitting at the tent door in the heat of the day."
Genesis19:1NIV"Now the two ANGELS came to Sodom in the evening as Lot was sitting at the gate of Sodom. When Lot saw them, he stood up to meet them and [a]bowed down with his face to the ground. "
Here to of the visitors are specifically spoken of as angels
Genesis ch.18 v.13 NIV"Then they said to him, “Where is your wife Sarah?” And he said, “There, in the tent.” 10He said, “I will certainly return to you [m]at this time next year; and behold, your wife Sarah will have a son.” And Sarah was listening at the tent door, which was behind him."
The priestly garments are very precisely described at exodus 28 right down to linen under garments but no mention of footwear why might that be you think
Matthew ch.28:17-31NIV" You blind fools! Which is greater: the gold, or the temple that makes the gold sacred? 18You also say, ‘If anyone swears by the altar, it means nothing; but anyone who swears by the gift on the altar is bound by that oath.’ 19You blind men! Which is greater: the gift, or the altar that makes the gift sacred? 20Therefore, anyone who swears by the altar swears by it and by everything on it. 21And anyone who swears by the temple swears by it and by the one who dwells in it. " the ancient Hebrews only JEHOVAH'S presence sanctified a location nothing else.
Here is the Elijah verse
2Kings2:10-12NKJV"So he said, “You have asked a hard thing. Nevertheless, if you see me when I am taken from you, it shall be so for you; but if not, it shall not be so.” 11Then it happened, as they continued on and talked, that suddenly a chariot of fire appeared with horses of fire, and separated the two of them; and Elijah went up by a WHIRLWIND into heaven.
12And Elisha saw it, and he cried out, “My father, my father, the chariot of Israel and its horsemen!” So he saw him no more. And he took hold of his own clothes and tore them into two pieces. "
These horsemen mentioned by Elisha given the context how likely is it that these are mere men?
With Gen 19:1 - what? , Really?
Because an English translation says Angels then they are definitely "Angels"????
You do know about all the controversies, textual variants and issues in Genesis 18 ????!
That was precisely why I reference our oldest interpretation of part of the chapter, and they clearly recognised the 3 as lords, friends and therefore most likely messengers at 19:1. As this is also talked about in the text I linked.
http://dssenglishbible.com/genesis%2019.htm the standing before is a literary device for a legal setting. At this point the case is closed with the destruction.
See Exodus 14:9 regarding the difference between horsemen and chariots.
https://www.gotquestions.org/Elijah-chariot-fire.html
"These horsemen mentioned by Elisha given the context how likely is it that these are mere men?" - not likely , but they are also unlikely to be "Messengers", they are more likely a literary device.
Deuteronomy 29:5
https://biblehub.com/hebrew/adonai_113.htm
Genesis 18:3 -
Cambridge Bible for Schools and Colleges
3. My lord] R.V. marg. O Lord. The Heb. word so rendered has received three different translations.
(1) “O Lord,” as in Genesis 18:27; Genesis 18:30-32, Adonâi, addressed to God. So the Massoretic Heb. text, adding the word “holy,” as a note, to safeguard the meaning and the pronunciation.
(2) “my lords,” adonâi, as if Abraham addressed his three visitors together: compare the plural in Genesis 18:4-5.
(3) “my lord” (with change of vocalization), adônî (cf. Genesis 23:6; Genesis 23:11). The sing. is used in Genesis 18:3 (“thy servant”). This third rendering seems the most probable: (a) there is no sign of Abraham’s recognizing the real character of the strangers; (b) it would seem probable that he instinctively recognized one of them as the superior in position, though he does not perceive in him the manifestation of Jehovah until after Genesis 18:15.
https://biblehub.com/text/genesis/18-22.htm
Does NOT say that TWO men left. Cf. Genesis 10:9, Exodus 9:13 לִפְנֵ֣י
A literary device as per your assertion not if we let the book speak for itself.
Psalms34:7NIV",The angel of the Lord encamps around those who fear him,
and he delivers them."
It is more likely that Elisha saw a manifestation of this principle.
Psalm 106:23; Jeremiah 15:1; Numbers 16:7.
Servant, you know why the bible is called the bible? Many books. And you are not letting the book (singular) speak for itself.
I do not know the extent of the vocabulary used in 2 kings, I have not looked into it.
Search online for pictures of tornadoes combined with lightning. It is not such an unusual phenomenon. There is another word for lightning in Hebrew but could this be a more graphic/dramatic explanation of the phenomenon?
Here's the Septuagint rendering
"καὶ εἶπεν Κύριε, εἰ ἄρα εὗρον χάριν ἐναντίον σου, μὴ παρέλθῃς τὸν παῖδά σου."
My Lord singular.
When exactly Abraham realised they were superhuman seems a bit beside the point verse one already let's the reader know that this is a superhuman manifestation of JEHOVAH.
Called "the Bible" by whom,not JEHOVAH. If you want to understand JEHOVAH'S word you need start looking at it as a single work by a single author . The men used by JEHOVAH to pen this work are merely his scribes.
The term divine library is a good summation of what appears to be the case from a purely human perspective. But from the perspective of an informed faith the Book is one
I know the difference between horsemen and charioteers. What I am yet to discern is how this distinction is supposed advance your case.
What the text says angels so it must mean men? Here is the rule of interpretation nameless malakhim/aggelos are superhuman until proven otherwise not the other way around.
Genesis ch.3:8,YLT"And they hear the sound of JEHOVAH God walking up and down in the garden at the breeze of the day, and the man and his wife hide themselves from the face of JEHOVAH God in the midst of the trees of the garden" is it your position that this was a human Malakh/aggelos representing JEHOVAH in this verse?
Matthew ch.24:36KJV"But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only. "
The aggelos in this verse,are they Men,literary device(BTW this literary device have a name?),stars and planets?
Anything is possible I suppose but what is likely the case?
Sorry Servant but I am not playing the systematic theology game anymore. There are many approaches to biblical interpretation. Gen 18:1 one is a superhuman manifestation of Yehovah, agreed, but verse 2 is talking about 3 men.
Yes, that's what the LXX says, what about the Peshitta and other ancient witnesses?
"If you want to understand JEHOVAH'S word you need start looking at it as a single work by a single author" and which bible book tells you that exactly?
All scripture is inspired, but we get no list.
I did not say "it must mean men", however CH18 DOES say men.
Why are you trying to put words in my mouth. Take the Genesis account at its word. https://biblehub.com/text/genesis/6-9.htm
This is why you have to do mental gymnastics and also why systematic theology does not work.
Take Matthew ch.24:36 at its word too. I have no problem with the Angel that killed 18500 in a single night either.
In fact just, take the bible at its word and stop playing mental games.
Interesting verses to pursue are in 2 Samuel 24.
There is one right way to acquire the mind of the true author of the book. And that does not involve playing games of any kind.
As to their out ward appearance they are men for example in the Ezekiel's vision JEHOVAH is shown to have the appearance of a man but being the spirit being we know that his real appearance differs significantly from anything in the human or superhuman creation see Ezekiel 1:26 so not everything in the scriptures is to be taken literally this superhuman manifestation had the appearance of men so the writer is being descriptive ,here is an actual literary device it's called a metaphor. As I explained the sacred word never refers to mere sinful men as a manifestation of JEHOVAH Never.
So you have not being insisting all along that because the text calls this superhuman manifestation of JEHOVAH men that this must be taken literally and that there is no possibility that the term men is being used metaphorically? Well I'm glad to here that. Well you certainly entitled to your opinion of course but from my sensibilities all the mental contortions have been coming from your end. But that is just the way things tend to work.
The language does demonstrate the difference - "men" and "someone like a son of man" (like a man).
In the NIV you seem to like it has a heading above Ezekiel chapter 1. It says - Ezekiel’s Inaugural Vision. A vision that at V26 says "a figure like that of a man".
So it's a vision with someone like a man, so tell me how that equates to Gen 18, and where in gen 18 is a manifestation of Jehovah.
See Exodus 24:3, who spoke and who spoke?
JEHOVAH does not look like a man Duncan so this verse is not to be understood literally Just like genesis 18's reference to these angels as men is not to be understood literally.
Verse 1 states plainly that JEHOVAH appeared to Abraham ,also not to be understood literally ,but it does let the reader know that the phenomenon being witnessed by Abraham is of a super physical sort
Exodus ch.24:3ASV",And Moses came and told the people all the words of JEHOVAH, and all the ordinances: and all the people answered with one voice, and said, All the words which JEHOVAH hath spoken will we do." Moses Quoted JEHOVAH and the people(likely represented by their tribal elders) acknowledged JEHOVAH as the source of the law.
Matthew Ch.24:7ASV"And David spake unto Jehovah when he saw the angel that smote the people, and said, Lo, I have sinned, and I have done perversely; but these sheep, what have they done? let thy hand, I pray thee, be against me, and against my father's house."
So this angel that smote the people, a man? A literary device?
As to why the Septuagint is to be given primacy the inspired N.T writers quote from Septuagint.
Numbers ch.12:7,8ASV"My servant Moses is not so; he is faithful in all my house:
8with him will I speak mouth to mouth, even manifestly, and not in dark speeches; and the form of Jehovah shall he behold: wherefore then were ye not afraid to speak against my servant, against Moses?"
Acts ch.7:35 NIV"“This is the same Moses they had rejected with the words, ‘Who made you ruler and judge?’ He was sent to be their ruler and deliverer by God himself, through the angel who appeared to him in the bush."
"N.T writers quote from Septuagint." - sometimes.
Just because the text is written in Greek does not mean that they are quoting a set of scrolls that was freely available. They heard the texts in Hebrew at the "Moses seat".
https://youarecurrent.com/2017/09/25/column-chorazin-and-the-seat-of-moses/#:~:text=In%201926%2C%20excavators%20found%20a,so%2Dcalled%20Seat%20of%20Moses.
18 Verse 1 also tells you WHERE Yehovah appeared.
You have a problem with Ex 24:3 - https://biblehub.com/hebrew/dibber_1696.htm
and it does not say "spoken to Moses", at this point he is not at the bush.
https://biblehub.com/text/exodus/19-8.htm
https://biblehub.com/hebrew/vaiyashev_7725.htm
But couldn't Yehovah hear the people?
What about 2 Sam 24:1 & 1 Chronicles 21:1 ?
Servent, regarding your claims of early witness of "christian" - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3dNFAXLC8qw
Exodus ch.24:3 NIV"Exodus24:1LORD said to Moses, “Come up to the LORD, you and Aaron, Nadab and Abihu, and seventy of the elders of Israel. You are to worship at a distance, 2but Moses alone is to approach the LORD; the others must not come near. And the people may not come up with him.”
3When Moses went and told the people all the LORD’s words and laws, they with one voice, “Everything the LORD has said we will do.” " What problem do you imagine that this verse poses for me?
Genesis ch.18:1NIV"The LORD appeared to Abraham near the great trees of Mamre while he was sitting at the entrance to his tent in the heat of the day. "
So what? do you suppose that angels are immobile or some such thing? You do know that angels are capable of movement right?
2Samuel24:1ASV"And again the anger of Jehovah was kindled against Israel, and he moved David against them, saying, Go, number Israel and Judah."
Here is the the Expositor's commentary on the verse
"
Bible > Commentary > EXP > 2 Samuel
◄ 2 Samuel 24 ►
Expositor's Bible Commentary
2 Samuel 24:1
And again the anger of the LORD was kindled against Israel, and he moved David against them to say, Go, number Israel and Judah.
CHAPTER XXXII.
THE NUMBERING OF ISRAEL.
2 Samuel 24:1-25THOUGH David's life was now drawing to its close, neither his sins nor his chastisements were yet exhausted. One of his chief offences was committed when he was old and grey-headed. There can be little doubt that what is recorded in this chapter took place toward the close of his life; the word "again" at the beginning indicates that it was later in time than the event which gave rise to the last expression of God's displeasure to the nation. Surely there can be little ground for the doctrine of perfectionism, otherwise David, whose religion was so earnest and so deep, would have been nearer it now than this chapter shows that he was.
The offence consisted in taking a census of the people. At first it is difficult to see what there was in this that was so sinful; yet highly sinful it was in the judgment of God, in the judgment of Joab, and at last in the judgment of David too; it will be necessary, therefore, to examine the subject very carefully if we would understand clearly what constituted the great sin of David.
The origin of the proceeding was remarkable. It may be said to have had a double, or rather a triple, origin: God, David, and Satan, or, as some propose to render in place of Satan, "an enemy."
In Samuel we read that "the Lord's anger was again kindled against Israel." The nation required a chastisement. It needed a smart stroke of the rod to make it pause and think how it was offending God. We do not require to know very specially what it was that displeased God in a nation that had been so ready to side with Absalom and drive God's anointed from the throne. They were far from steadfast in their allegiance to God, easily drawn from the path of duty; and all that it is important for us to know is simply that at this particular time they were farther astray than usual, and more in need of chastisement. The cup of sin had filled up so far that God behooved to interpose.
For this end "the Lord moved David against them to say, Go, number Israel and Judah." The action of God in the matter, like His action in sinful matters generally, was that He permitted it to take place. He allowed David's sinful feeling to come as a factor into His scheme with a view to the chastising of the people. We have seen many times in this history how God is represented as doing things and saying things which He does not do nor say directly, but which He takes up into His plan, with a view to the working out of some great end in the future. "
One can also Consider JEHOVAH's Comments to Satan in the book of Job Ch.2,3 NIV"Then the LORD said to Satan, “Have you considered my servant Job? There is no one on earth like him; he is blameless and upright, a man who fears God and shuns evil. And he still maintains his integrity, though you incited me against him to ruin him without any reason.”"
Here JEHOVAH in effect takes the blame for the evil that befell his servant Job even though he was not directly responsible.
As for Exodus ch.24:3 the verse does not mention any name at all as object of the people's reply so I am not sure what you are getting at. But whether one wants to make a Moses (who would seem the most contextually probable) or JEHOVAH I don't see an issue either way.
I didn't hear anything that refuted the BIBLE's record that Christians were recognised as a distinct sect in the first century by Jew and Gentile alike
Acts ch.11:26NIV"and when he found him, he brought him to Antioch. So for a whole year Barnabas and Saul met with the church and taught great numbers of people. The disciples were called Christians first at Antioch."(and likely you are familiar with Jewish historian Josephus)
BTW as is the case today Judaism was not a monolith, so were there some who might be inclined to view Christians as falling within the faith although being in error in certain particulars? Probably
See acts ch.5:34-39
The Bible tells us that most were much less charitable
Acts ch.28:22"But we want to hear what your views are, for we know that people everywhere are talking against this sect.”"
The point is they never quote from any of those later translations that you are mentioning ,and those quotes were selected by divine inspiration. The Spirit could make any translation available.
As To whether JEHOVAH needed a report from Moses to know the people's response. Likely you know the answer to that as well as I do, but JEHOVAH was dealing with the nation in a way that would reinforce Moses' mediatorship
Exodus ch.20:19NIIV"And they said unto Moses, Speak thou with us, and we will hear; but let not God speak with us, lest we die. "
I am not feeling well at the moment and I am tired of this pointless (IMO) back and forth.
http://dssenglishbible.com/2%20samuel%2024.htm#_ftn1
This has significant similarity to
Isaiah 27:1, Revelation 19:15
In genesis 18, when does Abraham look up? Who does he see BEFORE he looks?
Does the quote you provided about Christ have context that is specific to Jesus? Since Christos just means a messiah. https://www.blueletterbible.org/Comm/ice_thomas/Mat24-25/Mat24-25_Part06.cfm
This whole Yehovah speaking is just like Jesus baptism. John 12:29.
There is no evidence that anyone other than Jesus heard the voice language.
But that does not account for Moses action of response.
"but JEHOVAH was dealing with the nation in a way that would reinforce Moses' mediatorship"
You just keep making assertions.
For the sword thing - also see
https://quod.lib.umich.edu/cgi/k/kjv/kjv-idx?type=DIV1&byte=3849598
18:16.
"The Spirit could make any translation available." - please clarify.
https://biblehub.com/text/matthew/24-24.htm
I'm not following you what about Moses action made no sense?
Moses was alone at the bush when JEHOVAH'S angel spoke with him his reaction made perfect sense then.
When JEHOVAH'S angel came down on the mountain in a cloud the people understood what was being said exodus ch.19:9NIV"The LORD said to Moses, “I am going to come to you in a dense cloud, so that the people will HEAR me speaking with you and will always put their trust in you.” Then Moses told the LORD what the people had said."" So I see no parallels with John.
Verse 1of Genesis 18 makes a generalisation which is subsequently clarified by the following verses. We see something similar with Ezekiel's vision verse 1 of ch.1 generalises and the subsequent verses clarify the opening statement. I can't remember mentioning anything about a sword you might be getting me mixed up with someone else.
BTW get well soon.
https://www.jstor.org/stable/2059843
www.biblegateway.com/blog/2012/03/the-lord-thundered-from-heaven-thunder-and-the-authority-of-god
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